Election sabotage: The 'card check' trick

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Election sabotage: The 'card check' trick

Post by UNI88 »

One more commentary from the Trib

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi- ... 3512.story
At the end of the 19th Century, unsuspecting workers were "shanghaied"—a practice originated in that Chinese city—to work on British ships, which desperately needed the labor. All manner of tricks were used to hoodwink the poor souls into service at sea. According to one legend, press gangs, or "crimps," would put a coin—"the king's shilling"—in a man's drink. If the mark drank the ale only to see the coin at the bottom of an empty glass, it was too late and he was a member of the Royal Navy.

The proposed Employee Free Choice Act, colloquially known as "card check," might be better named "The Democrats' Shilling Act." It would radically revise the National Labor Relations Act, primarily by diluting the practice of requiring workers to vote for unionization via an election with a secret ballot and by changing the rules by which a government official can force labor rules on employers—making the choice to unionize less free. Basically, under card check, labor can unionize a company's employees if 50 percent of workers sign a card saying they want to unionize. The cards can be signed in the presence of others, including union organizers.

Indeed, the press gangs prefer it that way.
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Organized labor is not dead in America, nor should it be. But it's simply not as important as it once was because the government has an alphabet soup of agencies dedicated to protecting the rights of workers. Title VII of the Civil Rights Act, the Occupational Safety and Health Administration, and the Family and Medical Leave Act make the need for unions far less acute.

This is good news for workers, especially liberals, but it's bad news for unions because they need grievances to grow (and the Democrats need unions). In a recent Rasmussen poll, only 9 percent of non-union workers who responded wanted to belong to a union. That's quite a referendum.

The response from labor and the Democrats? If they won't join, shanghai them.
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Re: Election sabotage: The 'card check' trick

Post by dbackjon »

I agree - sort of. Like most labor proposals, this is in response primarily to anti-union strong arm tactics by management at certain companys Cough Walmart cough.
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Re: Election sabotage: The 'card check' trick

Post by TwinTownBisonFan »

more propaganda against people standing up for themselves.

nowhere in efca will it ban private elections (which are subject to INTENSE employer intimidation)... it lays out two options.

card checks allow people who are constantly threatened with termination for attempting to organize, a method for organizing that is safer.

yes, yes, we all know "you can't be fired for organizing"... and anyone who believes that... I've got a bridge to sell you.

what's funny to me is how f'ing scared of EFCA big business is... if you ask me, anything that has made the worst labor abusers in the county shart their collective britches this much, is worth doing.

case in point - Target. not much better than Wal-mart in terms of their treatment of their people. especially in the non-store hourly employees. (guys who load trucks for stores, people in payroll services and HR) You aren't going extract decent improvements in workplace standards, pay or benefits from the company. The employees are going to have to fight for it... and it's a hell of a lot easier for Target to intimidate one squeaky wheel who dares to ask "why are we working 12 hour days?" or "why is it when someone hits 45 in this company there are pressured to quit or systematically harassed until they do something to get fired?" (yes... both are happening frequently)

seems to me that it's time for a new NLRA.
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Re: Election sabotage: The 'card check' trick

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dbackjon wrote:I agree - sort of. Like most labor proposals, this is in response primarily to anti-union strong arm tactics by management at certain companys Cough Walmart cough.
The problem with that is the legislation makes it easier for unions to use strong arm tactics to organize people that don't really want it. It can be difficult to say no to signing a card with a couple of big guys asking you to but now you have the option to express your true feelings in the secret ballot election without fear of intimidation. Card Check will take away that ability.

And Card Check will not just be used against companies like Wal-Mart, it can and will be used against businesses large and small, union and non-union. A union company could be involuntarily switched from the contract they have signed to a less-favorable contract at the expiration of the current contract or it might be able to be used to switch their employees from one union to another. It will also make it easier to unionize management and office staff. The end result of this legislation will in all likelihood be an increase in costs for American businesses without a corresponding increase in productivity, making us less competitive in a global economy leading to fewer jobs and contributing to a downward spiral (which the Cap'n likes to blame all on Conks).

Anyone who thinks that this legislation will simply be used against 'bad' companies is delusional. And if Congress is serious about giving employees free choice than the Act needs to also strongly punish intimidation by organized labor.
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Re: Election sabotage: The 'card check' trick

Post by TwinTownBisonFan »

but intimidation and firings by the companies as we have it now is okay?

because that's the way it is right now...
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Re: Election sabotage: The 'card check' trick

Post by travelinman67 »

TwinTownBisonFan wrote:but intimidation and firings by the companies as we have it now is okay?

because that's the way it is right now...
And that's why there are NLRB rules and case laws codifying and penalizing union busting. Speaking of notable union busters...

...even the mob hates organized labor...

...seems to be a self-hate thing...

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Re: Election sabotage: The 'card check' trick

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TwinTownBisonFan wrote:yes, yes, we all know "you can't be fired for organizing"... and anyone who believes that... I've got a bridge to sell you.
I agree with you on the firing. It happens and it shouldn't. But if you think that when a union is trying to organize a company that they won't send a couple of goons to your house to 'encourage' you to sign the card than I also have a bridge to sell you. Intimidation by either side is wrong and shouldn't be tolerated. The EFCA doesn't do anything to penalize union intimidation.

Whether the legislation completely gets rid of the secret ballot election is debatable. It does do away with it in certain instances.
TwinTownBisonFan wrote:but intimidation and firings by the companies as we have it now is okay?

because that's the way it is right now...
How widespread is what you described right now? Is it prevalent in 10%, 50%, or 90% of companies. My guess is that most workers are not interested in being unionized so you have a problem with a small percentage of companies and this legislation is creating a bigger problem in trying to fix the smaller problem.

The other aspect of this that I don't think people realize is what it will mean to the number of jobs. Yes, union jobs typically pay more and have better benefits but that costs the employers more and can reduce their competitiveness and thus the number of jobs they can offer. Unionizing a 100 job company does not mean that you will end up with 100 higher paying jobs with better benefits it might mean that you end up with 75 better jobs and some business owners will say the heck with it and close their doors. In the extreme, what is better for the people and the American economy:
- 50 jobs that work 40 hours/week, pay well and have great benefits or
- 100 jobs that work 50-60 hours/week, pay less and don't have as good of benefits.

The citizens of the south side of Chicago would love to get a job at a Super WalMart that pays $10/hour because it sure beats what they have now - no job, no place nearby to shop for groceries, and no tax revenue for the City (since WalMart just opens up stores outside of the city limits). Unions have kept the City from allowing Super WalMarts because they want the big box stores to actually pay more than a smaller store.

This is an extremely complicated issue and ELCA is using a one size fits all solution to fix a problem effecting a small % of the working populace
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It will probably be difficult for MAQA yahoos to overcome the Qult programming but they should give being rational & reasonable a try.

Thank you for your attention to this matter - UNI88
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Re: Election sabotage: The 'card check' trick

Post by SuperHornet »

The cited article is inaccurate. The British practice of pressing was an 18th century device, one of the many that directly affected the Revolutionary War and the War of 1812 because the Brits pressed US seamen out of their own ship on charges of desertion. (Very few of these proved true, but by then it was too late for the pressed guys.) The practice fizzled out by the 1820s or thereabouts.

As for the similarity to the proposed union legislation? I don't get it. I don't like unions, and the tactic the Donkey laborites are using is disgusting, but I still don't get the similarity to the brutal press gangs, who were more similar to the modern practice of "jumping" someone into a gang.
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Re: Election sabotage: The 'card check' trick

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Re: Election sabotage: The 'card check' trick

Post by hank scorpio »

How do you all feel about ballot initiatives and referendums in states that allow them?

You sign a petition right in front of at least one person (proponent) and most likely in front of other people in a very public place were peer pressure can be a factor.
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Re: Election sabotage: The 'card check' trick

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hank scorpio wrote:How do you all feel about ballot initiatives and referendums in states that allow them?

You sign a petition right in front of at least one person (proponent) and most likely in front of other people in a very public place were peer pressure can be a factor.
I dislike what the referendum process in Arizona has become - paid gatherers, multiple petitions, lying to people, forging documents...
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Re: Election sabotage: The 'card check' trick

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dbackjon wrote:
hank scorpio wrote:How do you all feel about ballot initiatives and referendums in states that allow them?

You sign a petition right in front of at least one person (proponent) and most likely in front of other people in a very public place were peer pressure can be a factor.
I dislike what the referendum process in Arizona has become - paid gatherers, multiple petitions, lying to people, forging documents...
As somebody who processes them, I feel your pain.

MT rewrote our laws after the MT Supreme Court disqualified several ballot initiatives in 2006 due to paid out of state signature gatherers. It does work much better now.
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Re: Election sabotage: The 'card check' trick

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hank scorpio wrote:How do you all feel about ballot initiatives and referendums in states that allow them?

You sign a petition right in front of at least one person (proponent) and most likely in front of other people in a very public place were peer pressure can be a factor.
hate 'em hate 'em hate 'em

direct democracy is an affront to our republic. it's a refuge of stupid bumper sticker politics and cowardly legislators who are too scared to nut up and do their job...

ballot initiatives have led California to ruin... everyone wants to vote for dedicated funding for every damn thing... leaving the budget gutted for paying for the basics... they'll pay for extra-curriculars and special bike lanes, but not basic education and transportation... dipshitted.
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Re: Election sabotage: The 'card check' trick

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TwinTownBisonFan wrote:
hank scorpio wrote:How do you all feel about ballot initiatives and referendums in states that allow them?

You sign a petition right in front of at least one person (proponent) and most likely in front of other people in a very public place were peer pressure can be a factor.
hate 'em hate 'em hate 'em

direct democracy is an affront to our republic. it's a refuge of stupid bumper sticker politics and cowardly legislators who are too scared to nut up and do their job...

ballot initiatives have led California to ruin... everyone wants to vote for dedicated funding for every damn thing... leaving the budget gutted for paying for the basics... they'll pay for extra-curriculars and special bike lanes, but not basic education and transportation... dipshitted.
There are two-sides to that coin though.

In Arizona, the Legislature is very reactionary right wing. They have consistantly refused to vote for items the people want. So we have had no choice but to override them on many occasions. Initiatives were designed to give people a voice when the legislature was unresponsive.

Unfortunately, it has turn into who has the deepest pockets. Initiative reform is needed, but is still a great process
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Re: Election sabotage: The 'card check' trick

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TwinTownBisonFan wrote:
hank scorpio wrote:How do you all feel about ballot initiatives and referendums in states that allow them?

You sign a petition right in front of at least one person (proponent) and most likely in front of other people in a very public place were peer pressure can be a factor.
hate 'em hate 'em hate 'em

direct democracy is an affront to our republic. it's a refuge of stupid bumper sticker politics and cowardly legislators who are too scared to nut up and do their job...

ballot initiatives have led California to ruin... everyone wants to vote for dedicated funding for every damn thing... leaving the budget gutted for paying for the basics... they'll pay for extra-curriculars and special bike lanes, but not basic education and transportation... dipshitted.
That one hits home for me this year as I had to listen to one of our members of the house state that "I don't feel comfortable making decisions for people".
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Re: Election sabotage: The 'card check' trick

Post by TwinTownBisonFan »

dbackjon wrote:
TwinTownBisonFan wrote:
hate 'em hate 'em hate 'em

direct democracy is an affront to our republic. it's a refuge of stupid bumper sticker politics and cowardly legislators who are too scared to nut up and do their job...

ballot initiatives have led California to ruin... everyone wants to vote for dedicated funding for every damn thing... leaving the budget gutted for paying for the basics... they'll pay for extra-curriculars and special bike lanes, but not basic education and transportation... dipshitted.
There are two-sides to that coin though.

In Arizona, the Legislature is very reactionary right wing. They have consistantly refused to vote for items the people want. So we have had no choice but to override them on many occasions. Initiatives were designed to give people a voice when the legislature was unresponsive.

Unfortunately, it has turn into who has the deepest pockets. Initiative reform is needed, but is still a great process
our system has referendums... they are called elections. VOTE THEM OUT. Primary them...

thing is, legislators are tasked with and paid to understand the issues better than the average citizen, and make judgements based upon that knowledge.
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Re: Election sabotage: The 'card check' trick

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hank scorpio wrote:
TwinTownBisonFan wrote:
hate 'em hate 'em hate 'em

direct democracy is an affront to our republic. it's a refuge of stupid bumper sticker politics and cowardly legislators who are too scared to nut up and do their job...

ballot initiatives have led California to ruin... everyone wants to vote for dedicated funding for every damn thing... leaving the budget gutted for paying for the basics... they'll pay for extra-curriculars and special bike lanes, but not basic education and transportation... dipshitted.
That one hits home for me this year as I had to listen to one of our members of the house state that "I don't feel comfortable making decisions for people".
oh brother... I've got a dandy direct mail piece for his opponent... "if he doesn't feel comfortable... let's elect someone who is... Joe Schmoe, sound judgement, local values"
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Re: Election sabotage: The 'card check' trick

Post by hank scorpio »

dbackjon wrote:
TwinTownBisonFan wrote:
hate 'em hate 'em hate 'em

direct democracy is an affront to our republic. it's a refuge of stupid bumper sticker politics and cowardly legislators who are too scared to nut up and do their job...

ballot initiatives have led California to ruin... everyone wants to vote for dedicated funding for every damn thing... leaving the budget gutted for paying for the basics... they'll pay for extra-curriculars and special bike lanes, but not basic education and transportation... dipshitted.
There are two-sides to that coin though.

In Arizona, the Legislature is very reactionary right wing. They have consistantly refused to vote for items the people want. So we have had no choice but to override them on many occasions. Initiatives were designed to give people a voice when the legislature was unresponsive.

Unfortunately, it has turn into who has the deepest pockets. Initiative reform is needed, but is still a great process
That is why this process is was one of the biggest reforms of the progressive era, especially when a legislature is seen as "in the pocket" of corporations or special interests by the public. But I also agree with TTBF that the population can run amuk with direct democracy, maybe more stringent requirements are needed in a place like CA.
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