UPDATED! Judge Cuts Water To CA:Farmers to Lose $1.5 Billion

[Appaholic]

You're right, if the Corps was allowed to complete the projects in their original timetables, we wouldn't be having this argument about this water project, but about the next one......too bad Cali built their economy on a house of cards that obviously cannot be sustained without causing much damage...

The development of channels/canals to divert water from existing surface watershed sources for the purpose of agriculture began in the early 1800's under Mexico's rule. Most of the indigenous people had been forced by the Mexican government onto land grant settlements, and the major land holders who had access to the water sources were the multi-generation Spanish limpieza de sangre (noblemen) who maintained continuity of Spanish control. While the engineering methods were crude...their results were equivalent to todays methods. Sack dams, trough systems, for decades...
The fact you systemically condemn California for it's agriculture is illogical. California has one of the most fertile and productive agriculture zones ON EARTH!!! California's ag industry products support global food chains. If, as you are asserting, the focus is to maximize efficiency and productivity with a goal of minimizing environmental damage, then it would logically follow you would also support development of the MOST FERTILE AND PRODUCTIVE REGIONS.
Or is this just more nonsensical hyperbole to waste my time?

Thanks for the history lesson.....btw, how many people were living in Cali at that time? I'm not systematically condemning California for agriculture, I systematically condemn them for pursuing an agricultural based economy without the most vital resource...water. And yes, I do support maximizing efficiency and productivity with minimal environmental damage....which is why I do not support paying a georgia farmer NOT to grow a crop conducive to his envirnment so a california grower CAN grow the crop with US taxpayer subsidized water in an effort to justfy the CBA of the water project brought in by the powerful Cali water lobby....the fact you do sytematically support ANY water development for agricultural use in Cali as the best and wisest use at the expense of all other environmental concerns is asinine....and, if indicative of your neighbor's attitudes in Cali, then also explains why your economy is in the shitter....

...much like Citdog's South...(you know, if slavery hadn't been repealed, you wouldn't need illegals to work the corporate farms so vital to the state's economy)

Comparing water management, for the purpose of agricultural development, to slavery? Hell, don't stop there, PFB... Let's ban all farms that use manual labor... Wait... Let's just ban all manual labor... [*]f**k those "corporate" bastards who make money off of manual labor...

As usual, you miss the point.....and it wasn't railing against manual labor, but against a system that is unsustainable in it's current configuration long term...like picking cotton with slaves is unsustainable in the long term....as a matter of fact, the agribusiness you so passionately defend has been eliminating workers for years...ever seen how they harvest the almonds?...it ain't by hand with laborers...

The other arguments will have to wait until I can get home and get my data. But don't worry, I won't pull a "TMan" and not get back to you.... ...look for a response Monday as I am hopefully heading to the woods to do a little "monkeywrenching".....

Great...now I'm stuck listening to the driveby's for the next few days.

Not by me...I'm comfortable with my arguments...btw, what are we arguing? Water flow projections? The real reason for the promised water projects? Have we even gotten into the illegality of the Bureau building tghese projects to temporarily give to the State so they could sell to big agri? Remind me again....I'm still to upset from being called a pus-for-brains by the mighty whitenoise67.....

[Appaholic]

Water calculations were knowingly based upon very "wet" water years in an attempt to railroad through unnecessary water projects. Basically, they've knowingly overallocated the water rights so folks like you can raise hell and get the government (state & local) to build more water projects....to justify more growth...to justify more construction...to..to..how much is enough? Can you seriously tell me with a straight face that if the current infrastructure supported 200 million acre feet, these same farmers wouldn't be demanding another 200 million acre feet? C'mon.....

Negative. The highest water year for the Delta was in 1983 at 75 million acre feet. Had you studied this issue, you would have learned that the water rights were based upon ESTIMATES from 1926-1932 PROJECTIONS for Central Valley water consumption, and THOSE NUMBERS DROVE THE CORP'S WATER PROJECT DESIGNS...NOT VICE VERSA.

Great...it's not the pumps but the pollution...so let's build some more infrastructure to support more farm production which results in more pesticides flowing into the river....

That's the single most ignorant remark you've ever made. [*]f**k it, moron, let's just ban all farms.

Correct...a political problem brought on by power and money hungry Cali politicians and used as a smokescreen to foment populist rage at the "system". Speaking of "dodging truths" and "mythical notions", tell me again how 25 million acre feet are going to be delivered to 200 million acre feet of water rights promised? Control your fokking state....there's growth, smart growth and then plagues...Cali's growth is a plague on the natural resources of it's state. And now the legislature's irresponsible spending on projects such as the CWP are now doing what the "free" market was never allowed to do...drive people out of the state that it cannot further support....good....

Once again, you shoot your mouth off unprepared.

The 25 million acre feet is EXCLUSIVELY for farms...not urban or residential. Currently, urban and residential users HAVE NO WATER DELIVERY RIGHTS IN CALIFORNIA...THEIR NEEDS ARE DEAD LAST.
But, if you really mean what you say, then you're suggesting California has not controlled it's farms...and built "smart farms"????? And our farm growth is a "plague" on our natural resources?

And finally, on this last lunge into lunacy, please identify the legislature's "irresponsible spending" on the CWP?

Please...I'd like to see those numbers.

He's tired, we're tired....of the water and agri lobbyists continuing this fight against the natural realities. Oh, and that drought you speak of....it's a naturally occuring phenomenon like global climate change....go back and look at the data....

I'll say this again...no matter how much you attempt to go negative and personally attack me over my property investments, it will never change the fact that if the Corp of Engineers projects had been completed on the timetable put in place in 1964...we wouldn't be having this conversation today, and California wouldn't be facing a water crisis.

[travelinman67]

Negative. The highest water year for the Delta was in 1983 at 75 million acre feet. Had you studied this issue, you would have learned that the water rights were based upon ESTIMATES from 1926-1932 PROJECTIONS for Central Valley water consumption, and THOSE NUMBERS DROVE THE CORP'S WATER PROJECT DESIGNS...NOT VICE VERSA.



That's the single most ignorant remark you've ever made. [*]f**k it, moron, let's just ban all farms.



Once again, you shoot your mouth off unprepared.

The 25 million acre feet is EXCLUSIVELY for farms...not urban or residential. Currently, urban and residential users HAVE NO WATER DELIVERY RIGHTS IN CALIFORNIA...THEIR NEEDS ARE DEAD LAST.
But, if you really mean what you say, then you're suggesting California has not controlled it's farms...and built "smart farms"????? And our farm growth is a "plague" on our natural resources?

And finally, on this last lunge into lunacy, please identify the legislature's "irresponsible spending" on the CWP?

Please...I'd like to see those numbers.



I'll say this again...no matter how much you attempt to go negative and personally attack me over my property investments, it will never change the fact that if the Corp of Engineers projects had been completed on the timetable put in place in 1964...we wouldn't be having this conversation today, and California wouldn't be facing a water crisis.

Hey, d@ckhead. I gave you all the information you needed to get up to speed on this subject...

...I'll wager you didn't even watch the debate that was moderated by the actual judge in this case...

...maybe you ought to stick to "The Person Above Me" grade threads...

[houndawg]

Negative. The highest water year for the Delta was in 1983 at 75 million acre feet. Had you studied this issue, you would have learned that the water rights were based upon ESTIMATES from 1926-1932 PROJECTIONS for Central Valley water consumption, and THOSE NUMBERS DROVE THE CORP'S WATER PROJECT DESIGNS...NOT VICE VERSA.



That's the single most ignorant remark you've ever made. [*]f**k it, moron, let's just ban all farms.



Once again, you shoot your mouth off unprepared.

The 25 million acre feet is EXCLUSIVELY for farms...not urban or residential. Currently, urban and residential users HAVE NO WATER DELIVERY RIGHTS IN CALIFORNIA...THEIR NEEDS ARE DEAD LAST.
But, if you really mean what you say, then you're suggesting California has not controlled it's farms...and built "smart farms"????? And our farm growth is a "plague" on our natural resources?

And finally, on this last lunge into lunacy, please identify the legislature's "irresponsible spending" on the CWP?

Please...I'd like to see those numbers.



I'll say this again...no matter how much you attempt to go negative and personally attack me over my property investments, it will never change the fact that if the Corp of Engineers projects had been completed on the timetable put in place in 1964...we wouldn't be having this conversation today, and California wouldn't be facing a water crisis.

So you brought some property on spec and now you want to blame the tree-huggers because things didn't turn out the way you thought they would?

[travelinman67]

I'm not wise enough to debate with fact, so in true Gorista style, I always attempt to belittle those who intellectually dwarf me...

There ya' go.

[houndawg]

I'm not wise enough to debate with fact, so in true Gorista style, I always attempt to belittle those who intellectually dwarf me...

There ya' go.

I'm just saying you read the market wrong, that's all. But you do know that the tree-huggers are laughing their asses off at you, right? Don't worry though, you can recoup- manzanita makes great firewood.

[travelinman67]

There ya' go.

I'm just saying you read the market wrong, that's all. But you do know that the tree-huggers are laughing their asses off at you, right? Don't worry though, you can recoup- manzanita makes great firewood.

The land's been in my family for two generations. The project had nothing to do with it's acquisition.

You and Appaholic drew that conclusion and assigned it as the motivation in an attempt to make me appear selfish and greedy. If your I.Q. exceeded single digits, you would have observed my criticism of environmentalism is as a rule connected with it's detrimental impact to our nation's GDP and Quality of Life.

You see, mercenarydawg, unlike yourself and the leftist band of thieves you defend, I have a greater purpose in my vision of America, and "self-gain" doesn't even make the top 10. Just like exercise, if all you did was sit around and jack off, while you gain short term pleasure, after awhile your body become unhealthy, and you lose even the simple ability to obtain pleasure. If, however, you exercise and keep the whole body healthy, you'll have better hedonistic ability that is a function of your overall better health.

Don't worry, though, halfwitdawg...just know that there are men in this world who are not purely selfish like yourself, and that in the end, they'll be the ones making decisions about your life, so you'll be taken care of also...

[houndawg]

I'm just saying you read the market wrong, that's all. But you do know that the tree-huggers are laughing their asses off at you, right? Don't worry though, you can recoup- manzanita makes great firewood.

The land's been in my family for two generations. The project had nothing to do with it's acquisition.

You and Appaholic drew that conclusion and assigned it as the motivation in an attempt to make me appear selfish and greedy. If your I.Q. exceeded single digits, you would have observed my criticism of environmentalism is as a rule connected with it's detrimental impact to our nation's GDP and Quality of Life.

You see, mercenarydawg, unlike yourself and the leftist band of thieves you defend, I have a greater purpose in my vision of America, and "self-gain" doesn't even make the top 10. Just like exercise, if all you did was sit around and jack off, while you gain short term pleasure, after awhile your body become unhealthy, and you lose even the simple ability to obtain pleasure. If, however, you exercise and keep the whole body healthy, you'll have better hedonistic ability that is a function of your overall better health.

Don't worry, though, halfwitdawg...just know that there are men in this world who are not purely selfish like yourself, and that in the end, they'll be the ones making decisions about your life, so you'll be taken care of also...

How sharper than a serpent's tooth....man you're really hurting my feelings.


What you really mean is "it's detrimental impact on my option to sell out to the highest bidder....."

[D1B]

You see, mercenarydawg, unlike yourself and the leftist band of thieves you defend, I have a greater purpose in my vision of America,...

Tman, please elaborate. What is your vision of America? Please be specific in detailing how you would balance the interests of industry and the environment.

[houndawg]

I'm just saying you read the market wrong, that's all. But you do know that the tree-huggers are laughing their asses off at you, right? Don't worry though, you can recoup- manzanita makes great firewood.

The land's been in my family for two generations. The project had nothing to do with it's acquisition.

You and Appaholic drew that conclusion and assigned it as the motivation in an attempt to make me appear selfish and greedy. If your I.Q. exceeded single digits, you would have observed my criticism of environmentalism is as a rule connected with it's detrimental impact to our nation's GDP and Quality of Life.

You see, mercenarydawg, unlike yourself and the leftist band of thieves you defend, I have a greater purpose in my vision of America, and "self-gain" doesn't even make the top 10. Just like exercise, if all you did was sit around and jack off, while you gain short term pleasure, after awhile your body become unhealthy, and you lose even the simple ability to obtain pleasure. If, however, you exercise and keep the whole body healthy, you'll have better hedonistic ability that is a function of your overall better health.

Don't worry, though, halfwitdawg...just know that there are men in this world who are not purely selfish like yourself, and that in the end, they'll be the ones making decisions about your life, so you'll be taken care of also...

Don't worry about us - there's nothing left to steal! And thanks for the insight on the dangers of jacking off too much; don't foget that it applies to jacking off in print, too...........

[Appaholic]

I'm just saying you read the market wrong, that's all. But you do know that the tree-huggers are laughing their asses off at you, right? Don't worry though, you can recoup- manzanita makes great firewood.

The land's been in my family for two generations. The project had nothing to do with it's acquisition.

You and Appaholic drew that conclusion and assigned it as the motivation in an attempt to make me appear selfish and greedy. If your I.Q. exceeded single digits, you would have observed my criticism of environmentalism is as a rule connected with it's detrimental impact to our nation's GDP and Quality of Life.

You see, mercenarydawg, unlike yourself and the leftist band of thieves you defend, I have a greater purpose in my vision of America, and "self-gain" doesn't even make the top 10. Just like exercise, if all you did was sit around and jack off, while you gain short term pleasure, after awhile your body become unhealthy, and you lose even the simple ability to obtain pleasure. If, however, you exercise and keep the whole body healthy, you'll have better hedonistic ability that is a function of your overall better health.

Don't worry, though, halfwitdawg...just know that there are men in this world who are not purely selfish like yourself, and that in the end, they'll be the ones making decisions about your life, so you'll be taken care of also...

Oh good lord... ...anybody got any waders?...jesus fok....

[travelinman67]

You see, mercenarydawg, unlike yourself and the leftist band of thieves you defend, I have a greater purpose in my vision of America,...

Tman, please elaborate. What is your vision of America? Please be specific in detailing how you would balance the interests of industry and the environment.

I have already...at length.

Reasoned debate has ended in America.

If this board is microcosm of our society, then we are in trouble.

Rather than researching issues, reaching logical conclusions, presenting those conclusions with an end purpose of working towards policies, strategies or laws which benefit the social body, we've devolved into arguing for the sake of argument, with no end purpose other than to prove their opponent "wrong"...at all costs.

I'll continue posting political content, as I have since the '80's, mostly to balance the shout-down of soundbite media selling their ruby-slipper method social engineering program.

I will not, however, waste too much time responding to the few here who have made it a habit of arguing merely for the sake of arguing.

[D1B]

Tman, please elaborate. What is your vision of America? Please be specific in detailing how you would balance the interests of industry and the environment.

I have already...at length.

Not really. If memory serves, you dished up a big ole heapin helping of envirowhacko stew.

Give me one way you would balance the interests of Corporate mega farms (Water) with those of the natural environment and stewards of said environment. I'm curious about your thoughts on overpopulation, the recreational value of water versus corporate value, drought cycles, the role of global warming and the current historic droughts in the west, mega farms versus locally grown produce, pesticide contamination, tax payer subsidies of mega farms and the true cost of produce, organic farming versus soil destroying chemical methods.

[travelinman67]

I have already...at length.

Not really. If memory serves, you dished up a big ole heapin helping of envirowhacko stew.

Give me one way you would balance the interests of Corporate mega farms (Water) with those of the natural environment and stewards of said environment. I'm curious about your thoughts on overpopulation, the recreational value of water versus corporate value, drought cycles, the role of global warming and the current historic droughts in the west, mega farms versus locally grown produce, pesticide contamination, tax payer subsidies of mega farms and the true cost of produce, organic farming versus soil destroying chemical methods.

You left out "...your view of existential relevance...".

After tax season...I'm buried for the next few days.

[D1B]

Not really. If memory serves, you dished up a big ole heapin helping of envirowhacko stew.

Give me one way you would balance the interests of Corporate mega farms (Water) with those of the natural environment and stewards of said environment. I'm curious about your thoughts on overpopulation, the recreational value of water versus corporate value, drought cycles, the role of global warming and the current historic droughts in the west, mega farms versus locally grown produce, pesticide contamination, tax payer subsidies of mega farms and the true cost of produce, organic farming versus soil destroying chemical methods.

You left out "...your view of existential relevance...".

After tax season...I'm buried for the next few days.

Nah, let's just let Cleets and Joltin Joe jack each other off on that one.

How bout just your views on over population?

[travelinman67]

You left out "...your view of existential relevance...".

After tax season...I'm buried for the next few days.

Nah, let's just let Cleets and Joltin Joe jack each other off on that one.

How bout just your views on over population?

"Save yourself. Kill them all."


"Where's the cooche...let's make some babies."


"Don't hate me. I'm only doing what every woman dreamt of doing until they bought into the "modern woman mystic myth."


"I only wish I had saved myself for D1B..."


"I only wish I had met D1B when I was younger..."

[Appaholic]

Tman, please elaborate. What is your vision of America? Please be specific in detailing how you would balance the interests of industry and the environment.

I have already...at length.

Reasoned debate has ended in America.

If this board is microcosm of our society, then we are in trouble.

Rather than researching issues, reaching logical conclusions, presenting those conclusions with an end purpose of working towards policies, strategies or laws which benefit the social body, we've devolved into arguing for the sake of argument, with no end purpose other than to prove their opponent "wrong"...at all costs.

I'll continue posting political content, as I have since the '80's, mostly to balance the shout-down of soundbite media selling their ruby-slipper method social engineering program.

I will not, however, waste too much time responding to the few here who have made it a habit of arguing merely for the sake of arguing.

That's a pretty bleak view of debate in America...and accurate if all you watch is 24-hr cable and the network news....reasonable and rational people aren't newsworthy. However, good, reasoned debate can be found, but it requires effort. Sure, sometimes I'll argue with you for the sake of argument as I know you're informed and interested in issues. But you, like me, like to dig in the heels when challenged. I "knew absolutes" a heluva lot more when I was younger than I do now...I enjoy the other side of the debate and playing devil's advocate. It's been my experience that the folks who "know absolutes" are usually the most ignorant by choice....they know what they know and that's all they want or care to know.....that's dangerous thinking in today's age of continuing enlightenment. Please take no offense as we are all guilty of that sin with regard to certain "pet" issues. I'll promise to keep an open mind about arguments and sources and hope you'll do the same...

[Cap'n Cat]

ABC: Judge Cuts Water to California Farmers to Save Endangered Fish

By Brad Wilmouth
March 31, 2009 - 10:29 ET

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/brad-wilmo ... gered-fish

On the March 28 World News Saturday, ABC gave rare attention to the plight of drought-stricken farmers in California who have been denied access to a major water supply by a judge citing the Endangered Species Act to protect a type of fish. During a story recounting the unusual level of problems facing these farmers – a recession coinciding with drought – correspondent Lisa Fletcher informed viewers: "And for the first time ever, farmers may be completely cut off from one of their sources of water. Farmers don't have access to this water that runs right through the center of their farmland. It is being allocated to the delta smelt, a little fish protected by the Endangered Species Act. Conservationists say the smelt are dying in the irrigation pumps, so a judge ruled they must be shut off for much of the growing season."

Fletcher then told of an almond farmer who is now forced to spend $600,000 digging his own well. Fletcher: "That hits almond farmers, like Shawn Coburn, particularly hard. Ninety percent of the nation's almonds come from this valley, and almond trees need a lot of water. ... So Coburn is spending $600,000 to dig a new well, and he hopes to buy himself some time."

Below is a complete transcript of the story from the March 28 World News Saturday on ABC:

DAN HARRIS: In California, the problem is not too much wet weather, but not enough of it. A drought combined with the bad economy have delivered a one-two punch to the Central Valley, where much of the nation's food is grown. 100,000 acres went unplanted last year, and this year, it could be 750,000 acres. Economists say that will mean $1.5 billion in lost income and the elimination of 40,000 jobs. Lisa Fletcher is in California tonight.

LISA FLETCHER: In just a glance, you know something is very wrong.

PETE RAMIREZ, CROP DUSTER: It's like a desert. A couple of years ago, it was all farmland and everybody had a job.

THEDA LAWRENCE, MENDOTA: What are the people gonna do? How are they gonna eat whenever there's no farming?

FLETCHER: A quarter of the nation's fruits and vegetables are grown here in California's Central Valley. But the farmers here have been hit with two crises at the same time. They're in their third year of severe drought. And now, they must also cope with the worst recession in a generation. That has driven unemployment to staggering levels – 35 percent in some places, numbers that recall the Great Depression. And for the first time ever, farmers may be completely cut off from one of their sources of water. Farmers don't have access to this water that runs right through the center of their farmland. It is being allocated to the delta smelt, a little fish protected by the Endangered Species Act. Conservationists say the smelt are dying in the irrigation pumps, so a judge ruled they must be shut off for much of the growing season. That hits almond farmers, like Shawn Coburn, particularly hard. Ninety percent of the nation's almonds come from this valley, and almond trees need a lot of water.

SHAWN COBURN, ALMOND FARMER: If you have a crop that needs water year in and year out, you, it either dies, or you try to find a way to keep it alive.

FLETCHER: So Coburn is spending $600,000 to dig a new well, and he hopes to buy himself some time.

JOSE RAMIREZ, CITY MANAGER FOR FIREBAUGH, CALIFORNIA: All our people want here is a job. That's all we want. You let the water flow, food will grow, and jobs will flow after that, and we're in business.

Addl background...
http://articles.latimes.com/2008/dec/16 ... me-water16

Fvck them. Good job by that judge.

Time for everyone to go hydroponic and start growing shit indoors. Much less expensive and much less taxing on the environment and creatures that were here long before us. Lots of jobs to be had switching to hydroponic, too.

Times are changing, people. Don't think the Chinese won't be mandating some of this when we hand over the keys to them in 2011 or so.

[Pwns]

Don't think the Chinese won't be mandating some of this when we hand over the keys to them in 2011 or so.[/b][/size]

hhhhmmmm...gun bans around the corner...inevitable Chinese takeover. Is there a connection?

[Cap'n Cat]

They are coming. If they decide to call in our debt, we'll be fvcked. We'll have to sell that half-assed Navy and Air Force of ours.


"We sank de Amewican people for not putting up unnecessary resistance as we take ovah Edwuhds Air Fuss base in Cawifornia, part of wepayment for you embawwassing capitalist debt. We hope you are so courteous when our fweinds, de Russians, come for theh share. We pwomise safe passage for all who want to, to move to Iowa. Wong Wive Chairman Mao!"

[SDHornet]

I'll say this again...no matter how much you attempt to go negative and personally attack me over my property investments, it will never change the fact that if the Corp of Engineers projects had been completed on the timetable put in place in 1964...we wouldn't be having this conversation today, and California wouldn't be facing a water crisis.

If the Corps' "flood control" projects would have been completed, all the water conveyed through those projects would have been FREE for the farmers. That's why Dominy and the Bureau of Reclamation muscled them out. Any water conveyed by the potential "flood control" projects completed by the Corps' would not have been able to be sold to farmers meaning no return on the infrastructure investment.

The solution to all these issues, as stated previously, is a construction and completion of the Peripheral Canal that would result in a bypass of the Delta and its fish.

[travelinman67]

Time for everyone to go hydroponic and start growing shit indoors. Much less expensive and much less taxing on the environment and creatures that were here long before us. Lots of jobs to be had switching to hydroponic, too.

Times are changing, people. Don't think the Chinese won't be mandating some of this when we hand over the keys to them in 2011 or so.

How much energy is consumed in nutrient extraction/production for use in hydroponic solution and where is it obtained, Einstein?

[Cap'n Cat]

Time for everyone to go hydroponic and start growing shit indoors. Much less expensive and much less taxing on the environment and creatures that were here long before us. Lots of jobs to be had switching to hydroponic, too.

Times are changing, people. Don't think the Chinese won't be mandating some of this when we hand over the keys to them in 2011 or so.

How much energy is consumed in nutrient extraction/production for use in hydroponic solution and where is it obtained, Einstein?

Dear Edison,
Hydroponic growing medium can be either natural or manmade gelatin compounds. Run out of cow donors, we can switch to widely-available commercial polysaccharides and synthetic carageenan.

You really must read up on shit, T.

[travelinman67]

How much energy is consumed in nutrient extraction/production for use in hydroponic solution and where is it obtained, Einstein?

Dear Edison,
Hydroponic growing medium can be either natural or manmade gelatin compounds. Run out of cow donors, we can switch to widely-available commercial polysaccharides and synthetic carageenan.

You really must read up on shit, T.

I have, Albert...

...but I don't get my farming facts from "Grow Your Own Marijuana In the Closet" articles in High Times.

Outside of the Southwest and Mexico...the avg. ha (human/animal) energy requirements to produce and ship hydroponic grown vegetables was found to be TOO EXPENSIVE for commercial viability...and that study was completed in the early 90's with energy prices much lower than today.
What small portion of market share that hydroponic products has been able to garner results from CONSUMERIST Americans who demand FRESH, organically grown vegetables 365/24/7, and won't buy products from Central or South America.
Can hydroponics produce more per "acre" than conventional? Yes. Can hydroponic methods allow greater control that results in superior product? In most cases, yes. Can hydroponics eliminate conventional farming (i.e., water management)? Absolutely not.

I challenge you to produce any university study that supports large scale replacement (elimination) of conventional farming with hydroponic production methods.

And BTW, Albert, most commercial or large scale hydroponic operations get their N-P-K from fish, not cow, waste.

[Cap'n Cat]

Dear Edison,
Hydroponic growing medium can be either natural or manmade gelatin compounds. Run out of cow donors, we can switch to widely-available commercial polysaccharides and synthetic carageenan.

You really must read up on shit, T.

I have, Albert...

...but I don't get my farming facts from "Grow Your Own Marijuana In the Closet" articles in High Times.

Outside of the Southwest and Mexico...the avg. ha (human/animal) energy requirements to produce and ship hydroponic grown vegetables was found to be TOO EXPENSIVE for commercial viability...and that study was completed in the early 90's with energy prices much lower than today.
What small portion of market share that hydroponic products has been able to garner results from CONSUMERIST Americans who demand FRESH, organically grown vegetables 365/24/7, and won't buy products from Central or South America.
Can hydroponics produce more per "acre" than conventional? Yes. Can hydroponic methods allow greater control that results in superior product? In most cases, yes. Can hydroponics eliminate conventional farming (i.e., water management)? Absolutely not.

I challenge you to produce any university study that supports large scale replacement (elimination) of conventional farming with hydroponic production methods.

And BTW, Albert, most commercial or large scale hydroponic operations get their N-P-K from fish, not cow, waste.

Don't go to ridiculous extremes, Bosley. No one is calling for the total elimination of farming. I was fluffing.

Was listening to NPR yesterday, as most intelligent consumers of information do, and heard about a small project getting started in which grocery stores grow their produce hydroponically on their rooftops. Apparently, the total sq mileage of grocery store rooftops in the U.S. is some ridiculously high number and food grown atop them could take care of 35% to 50% of our produce needs. 'Course it needs a significant dollar investment and it's highly preliminary, iwth multiple additional considerations and limits.