Who was better: 96' Marshall or 13' NDSU?

[Mvemjsunpx]

In the spirit of a good debate I'll disagree with you. First I would like to add that I think that this NDSU Senior class and the '07 ASU Seniors are by the far the best recruiting classes I have ever seen and are the reasons why both programs won 3 straight NC's. I would have to give a slight advantage to ASU in regards to talent and a small edge to NDSU in regards to being coached with no disrespect to coach Moore at all.

That being said neither team would have beaten the '03 UD squad that absolutely steam rolled through the playoffs. We out scored our opponents 149-23 in the playoffs. Though neither Hall nor Johnson (both were drafted that year) won the Payton or Buchanan they were clearly both the best Offensive and Defensive players that year. There isn't a player on either NDSU or '06 ASU who impacted a game from the defensive standpoint the way Johnson did, not by a mile. AE was a better college QB than Hall, but their numbers were comparable during AE's freshmen year. Factor in Mike Adams who has collected over 500 tackles during his NFL career and I'd put that UD squad ahead of either of these teams. Where NDSU and ASU can hang their hats though is on the longevity and those two great classes. Winning back to back is near impossible....back to back to back. LEGENDARY. Gonna Miss ASU next year. Good luck.

No, the '03 Delaware team wasn't the best. They did dominate the postseason, but the playoff field that year was one of the weakest ever. There were at least two at-large teams that had non-DI losses (FAU & Montana).

[BDKJMU]

In the FWIW category, Sagarin from each season.


2013 NDSU #17 86.38 ranking
1996 Marshall #21 85.12 ranking
1996 Montana #45 75.80 ranking
1999 Georgia Southern #46 74.36 ranking

You mean 89' GSU?

[YoUDeeMan]

Marshall...and it isn't close.

The 2003 UD team was one of the best of all time. We had some injuries during the regular season, but everyone was healthy during the post season. We smashed highly ranked teams throughout the playoffs: SIU #4 (48-7), NIU #7 (37-7), Wofford #2 (23-9), and Colgate #6 (40-0). The games were never in doubt. Coach Kill (SIU) said that he had not seen his team so physically dominated. We also beat #3 UMass and #18 Villanova in back-to-back games at the end of the season. Toss in a win at 8-5 Navy, where their coach said Delaware wasn't really a I-AA team. Wofford the only game that could be considered even close, but they scored their only TD as time expired.

23 total points given up over 4 games (6 of those were as time expired) to teams ranked #2, #4, #6, and #7. That was simply a destruction of the field...and none of those teams UD beat were any slouches. Think about that...UD beat 5 of the top 7 teams in a six game stretch, and 6 of the top 18 teams in a six game stretch.

Special teams, defense, offense through the air and ground...that team had it all.

No offense to NDSU this year, but they faced the weaker teams in the playoff field (not NDSU's fault, but what was the ranking of their playoff opponents?)...and Towson looked like the better team for most of the first half...until Towson did what Towson usually does.

But Marshall...they were head and shoulders above everyone. Moss was ridiculous. Unstoppable as a college player, and unstoppable in the pros. Throw in the other future pro players they had and that Marshall team will go down as the best FCS has ever seen. They were I-AA in name only.

[BDKJMU]

Marshall...and it isn't close.

The 2003 UD team was one of the best of all time. We had some injuries during the regular season, but everyone was healthy during the post season. We smashed highly ranked teams throughout the playoffs: SIU #4 (48-7), NIU #7 (37-7), Wofford #2 (23-9), and Colgate #6 (40-0). The games were never in doubt. Coach Kill (SIU) said that he had not seen his team so physically dominated. We also beat #3 UMass and #18 Villanova in back-to-back games at the end of the season. Toss in a win at 8-5 Navy, where their coach said Delaware wasn't really a I-AA team. Wofford the only game that could be considered even close, but they scored their only TD as time expired.

23 total points given up over 4 games (6 of those were as time expired) to teams ranked #2, #4, #6, and #7. That was simply a destruction of the field...and none of those teams UD beat were any slouches. Think about that...UD beat 5 of the top 7 teams in a six game stretch, and 6 of the top 18 teams in a six game stretch.

Special teams, defense, offense through the air and ground...that team had it all.

No offense to NDSU this year, but they faced the weaker teams in the playoff field (not NDSU's fault, but what was the ranking of their playoff opponents?)...and Towson looked like the better team for most of the first half...until Towson did what Towson usually does.

But Marshall...they were head and shoulders above everyone. Moss was ridiculous. Unstoppable as a college player, and unstoppable in the pros. Throw in the other future pro players they had and that Marshall team will go down as the best FCS has ever seen. They were I-AA in name only.

Yeah, bu the 2003 UD team lost 24-10 @ non playoff Northeastern..

[OL FU]

Did NDSU cheat to win?

Marshall did

So until proven otherwise, NDSU is better.

[93henfan]

Did NDSU cheat to win?

Marshall did

So until proven otherwise, NDSU is better.

How did Marshall cheat, other than having the Championship Game in their stadium annually? I'm not doubting; I just don't remember. I only remember them beating the piss out of UD three times.

[OL FU]

Did NDSU cheat to win?

Marshall did

So until proven otherwise, NDSU is better.

How did Marshall cheat, other than having the Championship Game in their stadium annually? I'm not doubting; I just don't remember. I only remember them beating the piss out of UD three times.

I am old and don't remember all of it. But my recollection is there were numerous allegations including grade inflation, recruiting violations, ficticious employment of players by boosters. The NCAA investigated and basically let them off the hook. Most thought it was because Marshall was the poster child for moving to FBS which at the time the NCAA supported. But the NCAA has a memory, went back and investigated again 4 or 5 years later and slammed them.

Marshall was really good in basketball in the 80s until the NCAA caught them cheating. Same thing happened in football in the 90s until the NCAA caught them cheating. I don't know about now, but they were a corrupt program.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/footba ... bation_ap/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The above story discusses the violations starting in 1996. But I believe this because the 2000 investigation only covered that period. It went on before that.

[YoUDeeMan]

Yeah, bu the 2003 UD team lost 24-10 @ non playoff Northeastern..

True. UD's 2003 team wasn't the best during the regular season, but they had injuries. During the playoffs, we got everyone back and the team showed everyone the door...by a long shot.

Has there ever been a 6 game stretch where any team has beaten that many other highly ranked teams?

I'd give the overall season nod to other teams, but that UD playoff team had no weaknesses and outstanding strength everywhere.

In a championship game, I'd take that UD playoff team over anyone but '96 Marshall.

[CID1990]

How did Marshall cheat, other than having the Championship Game in their stadium annually? I'm not doubting; I just don't remember. I only remember them beating the piss out of UD three times.

I am old and don't remember all of it. But my recollection is there were numerous allegations including grade inflation, recruiting violations, ficticious employment of players by boosters. The NCAA investigated and basically let them off the hook. Most thought it was because Marshall was the poster child for moving to FBS which at the time the NCAA supported. But the NCAA has a memory, went back and investigated again 4 or 5 years later and slammed them.

Marshall was really good in basketball in the 80s until the NCAA caught them cheating. Same thing happened in football in the 90s until the NCAA caught them cheating. I don't know about now, but they were a corrupt program.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/footba ... bation_ap/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The above story discusses the violations starting in 1996. But I believe this because the 2000 investigation only covered that period. It went on before that.

I remember when Jim Donnan left there for UGA and remember thinking "Georgia is going to be in trouble within 3 years"

Marshall has a RICH tradition in breaking NCAA rules. Even the team that died on the plane crash was under investigation and it was well known that they were going to be suffering some penalties in the following season.

This isnt completely related, but I can remember the couple times we played in Huntington... fans spitting on the players and other fans, the absolute bush league behavior, even cutting the wires connecting the sidelines with the press box.

When I think of Marshall I am reminded of the line in Rob Roy:

"I will think of you dead, and then I will think on you no more."

[OL FU]

I am old and don't remember all of it. But my recollection is there were numerous allegations including grade inflation, recruiting violations, ficticious employment of players by boosters. The NCAA investigated and basically let them off the hook. Most thought it was because Marshall was the poster child for moving to FBS which at the time the NCAA supported. But the NCAA has a memory, went back and investigated again 4 or 5 years later and slammed them.

Marshall was really good in basketball in the 80s until the NCAA caught them cheating. Same thing happened in football in the 90s until the NCAA caught them cheating. I don't know about now, but they were a corrupt program.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/footba ... bation_ap/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The above story discusses the violations starting in 1996. But I believe this because the 2000 investigation only covered that period. It went on before that.

I remember when Jim Donnan left there for UGA and remember thinking "Georgia is going to be in trouble within 3 years"

Marshall has a RICH tradition in breaking NCAA rules. Even the team that died on the plane crash was under investigation and it was well known that they were going to be suffering some penalties in the following season.

This isnt completely related, but I can remember the couple times we played in Huntington... fans spitting on the players and other fans, the absolute bush league behavior, even cutting the wires connecting the sidelines with the press box.

When I think of Marshall I am reminded of the line in Rob Roy:

"I will think of you dead, and then I will think on you no more."

I went to the 1988 game in Huntington, the absolute worst experience I ever had at a football game (well almost, in Cullowhee one year I had a worse one, but that was because of one drunk hillbilly who probably didn't see a 5th grade classroom much less a classroom at WCU. At Marshall it was a large number of stupid people treating other people very badly.). The experience was mitigated by the fact that we beat their ass and went on to when the NC.

Two things piss me off about Marshall. One is their fault. Cheating. Two, is other school's fans fault. Most people consider them a dominant FCS program. They didn't dominate the SoCon much less FCS. There were in the SoCon for 20+ years (?) and won 4 conference championships

[93henfan]

91-96 Marshall and their Invitational is what people outside the SoCon remember.

[OL FU]

91-96 Marshall and their Invitational is what people outside the SoCon remember.

You are right they did well in the playoffs because they bought their home games which is fine. Those are the rules. and during that time period, they won 2 SoCon Championships. '94 and '96. ASU won 2. The Citadel won 1 and GSU won 1. They didn't even dominate the SoCon.

And I was wrong, Marshall also was co-champ with Furman in 1988. So they won three SoCon championships, not 4.

[dal4018]

Both teams finished 15-0, the only 2 I know of to have done so.

1996 Marshall team kicked the crap out of most teams they played. Not a single win by less than 2 TDs, and only 3 by less than 24 points. Granted they didn't play a I-A, and played a Div II.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Marsh ... tball_team" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They were loaded with at least 9 future NFL players, 5 of them draft picks (2 1st round, a 2nd, a 3rd, and a 5th). Here's who they had on their 96' team:

-Randy Moss, then a rFr in 96' after signing with Notre Dame, getting denied admission, then getting booted from FSU. From wiki: "..set the NCAA Division I-AA records for most games with a touchdown catch in a season (14), most consecutive games with a touchdown catch (13), most touchdown passes caught in a season (28 – tying Jerry Rice's 1984 record), and most receiving yards gained by a freshman in a season (1709 on 78 catches), a record which still stands. Moss was also the leading kickoff returner in Division I-AA on the season, with 612 total yards and a 34.0 yard average."
1st round draft pick in 98'. 15 seasons in the NFL, slew of All Pro, Pro Bowl & other awards.

-Chad Pennington: in 95' as a true Fr had led Marshall to the NC game which lost to Montana. In 96' he redshirted as he was the backup to Eric Kresser, a FL transfer. Pennington in 97' was back as starting QB, led Marhsall to a 13-0 season in their 1st yr in the MAC, and was 5th in the Heisman voting. A 1st round draft pick in 2000, 11 seasons in the NFL, 2nd to Manning in 08' AP NFL MVP voting.

-John Wade, a Jr Center in 96' who was a 5th round in 98', spent 11 seasons in the NFL. From Harrisonburg, VA, btw.

-Rogers Beckett, a Fr DB in 96' who was a 2nd Rd draft pick in 2000

-Doug Chapman, as a Fr RB in 96' rushed for over 1200 yds. A 3rd round draft pick in 2000.

-Chris Hanson, a Soph punter in 96' who spent 11 seasons in the NFL.

-Billy Lyon, a Jr DL in 96' who spent 6 seasons in the NFL.

-Andre O'Neal, a Fr LB in 96' who spent 2 seasons in the NFL.

-Chris Parker, a Sr RB who spent a season in the NFL.

I agree Marshall would destroy the '13 version of the Bison no one to deal with Moss.

[HenZoneNation]

Marshall...and it isn't close.

The 2003 UD team was one of the best of all time. We had some injuries during the regular season, but everyone was healthy during the post season. We smashed highly ranked teams throughout the playoffs: SIU #4 (48-7), NIU #7 (37-7), Wofford #2 (23-9), and Colgate #6 (40-0). The games were never in doubt. Coach Kill (SIU) said that he had not seen his team so physically dominated. We also beat #3 UMass and #18 Villanova in back-to-back games at the end of the season. Toss in a win at 8-5 Navy, where their coach said Delaware wasn't really a I-AA team. Wofford the only game that could be considered even close, but they scored their only TD as time expired.

23 total points given up over 4 games (6 of those were as time expired) to teams ranked #2, #4, #6, and #7. That was simply a destruction of the field...and none of those teams UD beat were any slouches. Think about that...UD beat 5 of the top 7 teams in a six game stretch, and 6 of the top 18 teams in a six game stretch.

Special teams, defense, offense through the air and ground...that team had it all.

No offense to NDSU this year, but they faced the weaker teams in the playoff field (not NDSU's fault, but what was the ranking of their playoff opponents?)...and Towson looked like the better team for most of the first half...until Towson did what Towson usually does.

But Marshall...they were head and shoulders above everyone. Moss was ridiculous. Unstoppable as a college player, and unstoppable in the pros. Throw in the other future pro players they had and that Marshall team will go down as the best FCS has ever seen. They were I-AA in name only.

Yeah, bu the 2003 UD team lost 24-10 @ non playoff Northeastern..

North Eastern was 8-4 that year, one year removed from being Co-Atlantic 10 Champs....we should have defeated them but they were hardly push-overs.

I think Marshall is a different animal. They were never meant to be an FCS school. Moss was an exceptional talent, but any school willing to enroll him and keep him eligible during that time in his life is sketchy at best.

[Gil Dobie]

Both teams finished 15-0, the only 2 I know of to have done so.

1996 Marshall team kicked the crap out of most teams they played. Not a single win by less than 2 TDs, and only 3 by less than 24 points. Granted they didn't play a I-A, and played a Div II.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Marsh ... tball_team" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They were loaded with at least 9 future NFL players, 5 of them draft picks (2 1st round, a 2nd, a 3rd, and a 5th). Here's who they had on their 96' team:

-Randy Moss, then a rFr in 96' after signing with Notre Dame, getting denied admission, then getting booted from FSU. From wiki: "..set the NCAA Division I-AA records for most games with a touchdown catch in a season (14), most consecutive games with a touchdown catch (13), most touchdown passes caught in a season (28 – tying Jerry Rice's 1984 record), and most receiving yards gained by a freshman in a season (1709 on 78 catches), a record which still stands. Moss was also the leading kickoff returner in Division I-AA on the season, with 612 total yards and a 34.0 yard average."
1st round draft pick in 98'. 15 seasons in the NFL, slew of All Pro, Pro Bowl & other awards.

-Chad Pennington: in 95' as a true Fr had led Marshall to the NC game which lost to Montana. In 96' he redshirted as he was the backup to Eric Kresser, a FL transfer. Pennington in 97' was back as starting QB, led Marhsall to a 13-0 season in their 1st yr in the MAC, and was 5th in the Heisman voting. A 1st round draft pick in 2000, 11 seasons in the NFL, 2nd to Manning in 08' AP NFL MVP voting.

-John Wade, a Jr Center in 96' who was a 5th round in 98', spent 11 seasons in the NFL. From Harrisonburg, VA, btw.

-Rogers Beckett, a Fr DB in 96' who was a 2nd Rd draft pick in 2000

-Doug Chapman, as a Fr RB in 96' rushed for over 1200 yds. A 3rd round draft pick in 2000.

-Chris Hanson, a Soph punter in 96' who spent 11 seasons in the NFL.

-Billy Lyon, a Jr DL in 96' who spent 6 seasons in the NFL.

-Andre O'Neal, a Fr LB in 96' who spent 2 seasons in the NFL.

-Chris Parker, a Sr RB who spent a season in the NFL.

I'm not sold on having more future NFL players, makes a team better than anyone else. If that were true, the SWAC and MEAC teams would have a lot more titles than they have.

[Grizzlies1982]

This isnt completely related, but I can remember the couple times we played in Huntington... fans spitting on the players and other fans, the absolute bush league behavior, even cutting the wires connecting the sidelines with the press box.

When I think of Marshall I am reminded of the line in Rob Roy:
"I will think of you dead, and then I will think on you no more."

I'm surprised to read your comments and those of "OL FU". I was at the Marshall / Montana 1995 Championship in Huntington and had the opposite experience. I expected some of what you described but instead we were treated royally by everyone at their stadium. Invites for food or drink as we passed their tailgates. Good natured banter with those nearby in the stands. Overall it was the most pleasant away game experience I ever had. Perhaps that was an anomaly as it was my only experience there. Yet I left W. VA very impressed with their fans.

The only downside was the night before the game at about 2:00 am. There were some drunk locals giving us sh#t in a late night diner. They were looking for trouble and we weren't quite drunk enough to take them up on it. Much to their disappointment it didn't escalate into anything. However, that didn't influence my impression of the place since at 2:00 am you'll find those same drunks in about every college town.

[OL FU]

This isnt completely related, but I can remember the couple times we played in Huntington... fans spitting on the players and other fans, the absolute bush league behavior, even cutting the wires connecting the sidelines with the press box.

When I think of Marshall I am reminded of the line in Rob Roy:
"I will think of you dead, and then I will think on you no more."

I'm surprised to read your comments and those of "OL FU". I was at the Marshall / Montana 1995 Championship in Huntington and had the opposite experience. I expected some of what you described but instead we were treated royally by everyone at their stadium. Invites for food or drink as we passed their tailgates. Good natured banter with those nearby in the stands. Overall it was the most pleasant away game experience I ever had. Perhaps that was an anomaly as it was my only experience there. Yet I left W. VA very impressed with their fans.

The only downside was the night before the game at about 2:00 am. There were some drunk locals giving us sh#t in a late night diner. They were looking for trouble and we weren't quite drunk enough to take them up on it. Much to their disappointment it didn't escalate into anything. However, that didn't influence my impression of the place since at 2:00 am you'll find those same drunks in about every college town.

I am glad you had a better experience. Maybe it had to do with the rivalry aspect, I don't know. I only went once and, while good, it was before they became a "power".

Now on the other hand, at had a lot of interaction with the Green folks in Asheville at the SoCon BB tournament and that was a totally different experience. Maybe it was just that game or that year. But my 1988 visit was horrible.