The Ukraine Crisis

[kalm]

You left out that the administration is also floating the idea of executing another US citizen without due process and has worked closely with the Brits on threatening incarceration and violating the rights of dissenting journalists like Moazzam Begg and Glen Greenwald.

Indeed. Obama has proven to be a megalomaniac and tyrant on most levels.

Nobel Peace Prize.

And to steal a line from my conk brothers...I predict mostly crickets from the left on this.

Obama is not a good man.

[CitadelGrad]

And what would you great and mighty warriors do?

Maybe invade say China?

I know what I wouldn't do. I wouldn't have issued the weak-ass statement of capitulation that he made last night. It would have been best for all concerned if he had just kept his mouth shut.

[CitadelGrad]

Guantanamo is leased.

That's certainly one way to look at it......

It's the only way to look at it. Cuba accepts the lease payments, and by doing so implicitly accepts the terms of the lease and gives its imprimatur to the U.S. military presence there.

[BDKJMU]

"Kremlin Prepares for Military Intervention

SIMFEROPOL, Ukraine — As Russian-backed armed forces effectively seized control of Ukraine’s Crimean peninsula on Saturday, President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia requested —and received — authorization from the Russian Senate to use military force in Ukraine.

The actions signaled publicly for the first time the Kremlin’s readiness to intervene militarily in Ukraine, and it served as a blunt response to President Obama, who just hours earlier pointedly warned Russia to respect Ukraine’s sovereignty.

Within hours after receiving Mr. Putin’s request, Russia’s upper house of parliament, the Federation Council, voted to approve it, after a debate that warned of the apocalyptic consequences of failing to stop a fascist threat from spreading to Russia’s borders. The lawmakers directed considerable fury at President Obama and others in the West they accused of fomenting the upheaval in Ukraine.

The vote was unanimous among the 90 members present for the debate, and it was clear that forces allied with Moscow were largely in control of the disputed peninsula........"
http://nytimes.com/2014/03/02/world/eur ... &referrer=" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[BDKJMU]

Obama Fri:
"The United States will stand with the international community in affirming that there will be costs for any military in Ukraine."

Anyone know what these "costs" Obama speaks of are?

[93henfan]

Obama Fri:
"The United States will stand with the international community in affirming that there will be costs for any military in Ukraine."

Anyone know what these "costs" Obama speaks of are?

Yes. The invasion will be dealt with like card counting in Vegas. It will be frowned upon. We may even ask Putin to leave the blackjack table and play craps.

But real costs? Maybe we'll ban the export of the XBox One to Russia. You know, something crippling like that.

[Skjellyfetti]

It's the only way to look at it. Cuba accepts the lease payments, and by doing so implicitly accepts the terms of the lease and gives its imprimatur to the U.S. military presence there.

The lease payments are for ~$4,000 dollars a year... and Cuba hasn't accepted a payment since the 1950s. So, yeah... they do not implicitly accept the terms of the lease forced on them under threat of military force in any way.




Russia, however, DOES give Ukraine cheap oil and gas in exchange for their Naval base in the Crimea and the Ukraine accepts it... though, with a new government that is obviously changing. But, there's has certainly been a more legitimate lease than ours.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/a ... eet-russia" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Guantanamo is leased. The Crimea isn't.

[SDHornet]

And what would you great and mighty warriors do?

Maybe invade say China?

I know what I wouldn't do. I wouldn't have issued the weak-ass statement of capitulation that he made last night. It would have been best for all concerned if he had just kept his mouth shut.

This. Even Obama knows he will do nothing to stop Russia from doing what they do. He should have put the ball in the EU's court so their incompetence and lack of will would be on full display to the world. Putin and the Russians are going to have a field day in Ukraine.

[Skjellyfetti]

Putin and the Russians are going to have a field day in Ukraine.

I really doubt it. They're going to take the Crimea and that's it. I do not think they'll invade all of Ukraine.

The Crimea asked them to come. It's not aggression on the part of Russia (despite what Obama and others have said). If they want to be a part of Russia... so be it. I do not really give a shit one way or the other.




And, yeah, this is another thing I disagree with Obama on.

[SDHornet]

Putin and the Russians are going to have a field day in Ukraine.

I really doubt it. They're going to take the Crimea and that's it. I do not think they'll invade all of Ukraine.

The Crimea asked them to come. It's not aggression on the part of Russia (despite what Obama and others have said). If they want to be a part of Russia... so be it. I do not really give a shit one way or the other.




And, yeah, this is another thing I disagree with Obama on.

That's like saying we only invaded Baghdad, or we only invaded the Pashtun region of Afghanistan. Yeah, no big deal, nothing to see here.

[Skjellyfetti]

That's like saying we only invaded Baghdad, or we only invaded the Pashtun region of Afghanistan. Yeah, no big deal, nothing to see here.

It's nothing like either of those.

Did the Taliban or Saddam ask us to come?

[SDHornet]

That's like saying we only invaded Baghdad, or we only invaded the Pashtun region of Afghanistan. Yeah, no big deal, nothing to see here.

It's nothing like either of those.

Did the Taliban or Saddam ask us to come?

So the Russian puppet president asks them to come...and they secure places only important to them militarily and economically...and that's completely ok. Got it.

Thank God Obama said there will be "costs" associated with this power move.

[BDKJMU]

Putin and the Russians are going to have a field day in Ukraine.

I really doubt it. They're going to take the Crimea and that's it. I do not think they'll invade all of Ukraine.

The Crimea asked them to come. It's not aggression on the part of Russia(despite what Obama and others have said). If they want to be a part of Russia... so be it. I do not really give a **** one way or the other.




And, yeah, this is another thing I disagree with Obama on.

[Skjellyfetti]

So the Russian puppet president asks them to come...and they secure places only important to them militarily and economically...and that's completely ok. Got it.

Well, Crimea is overwhelmingly pro-Russian and was overwhelmingly pro-Yanukovych (more than 75% of the vote). I believe it's what they want. If you disagree... make a point... but, you're doing an awful job of it.

I'm certainly more sympathetic to Tymoshenko and the rest of Ukraine... but, if the Crimea wants to secede from the Ukraine or join with Russia... I do not give a shit. It's not our business.

Thank God Obama said there will be "costs" associated with this power move.

Already said Obama's response was terrible and I disagree with it completely.

[BlueHen86]

And what would you great and mighty warriors do?

Maybe invade say China?

I know what I wouldn't do. I wouldn't have issued the weak-ass statement of capitulation that he made last night. It would have been best for all concerned if he had just kept his mouth shut.

I agree. Russia will do what it wants here regardless of what we say, best to say nothing. Work behind the scenes where possible, but no sense making statements that we aren't going to back up.

[BDKJMU]

Putin and the Russians are going to have a field day in Ukraine.

I really doubt it. They're going to take the Crimea and that's it. I do not think they'll invade all of Ukraine.

The Crimea asked them to come. It's not aggression on the part of Russia (despite what Obama and others have said). If they want to be a part of Russia... so be it. I do not really give a **** one way or the other.




And, yeah, this is another thing I disagree with Obama on.

So Russia displaces Crimean citizens (Stalin in 44' exiled the Crimean Tartars), later floods it with their own peoples, and then using the pretense of being asked to come, invades a sovereign nation for no good reason (it's not like terrorists aren using it as a base of ops like Chechnya, have or are seeking WMDs) and according to you that isn't aggression on Russia's part?

That would be like Mexico flooding with their own citizens, a neighboring US state with important strategic ocean access, say Southern CA (oh wait, they already have), and having those people turn around and ask Mexico to come, and Mexico using that as a pretext for an invasion of Southern CA. According to your logic that wouldn't be aggression on the part of Mexico.

[UNI88]

That's like saying we only invaded Baghdad, or we only invaded the Pashtun region of Afghanistan. Yeah, no big deal, nothing to see here.

It's nothing like either of those.

Did the Taliban or Saddam ask us to come?

So if the Northern Alliance or the Kurds had asked us to come it would have been ok?

BDKJMU is right in that Russia forced the natives out of the Crimea, flooded it with Russians and is now going to invade because they asked them to come. The reality is that Putin doesn't care about the Russians in the Crimea, he wants to control it for strategic purposes. He wants to put Ukraine in it's place so that he can maintain his macho image and not appear weak to the Chechens and others. Why is it ok for Putin to be a macho foreign adventurist but it wasn't ok for Dubya? You're starting to sound like an American communist trying to rationalize Stalin's atrocities.

Ukraine is a sovereign nation. If the Russians in the Crimea don't like the direction the country is headed they should seek asylum and move back to Russia.

[Skjellyfetti]

So if the Northern Alliance or the Kurds had asked us to come it would have been ok?

Invade Iraq or just the Kurdish areas?

If you're saying all of Iraq... that's not at all analogous. If you're just saying the Kurdish areas... sure. I think the Kurds should have their own country and I'm in support of a Kurdistan.

Now, I'm not at all in favor of starting a war with Iraq, Syria, Turkey, and Iran to make a Kurdistan... but, I think it would be completely justified if we did.

Should have listened to TE Lawrence after WWI, but that is another topic entirely.

[Skjellyfetti]

And, just so I'm clear... does anyone actually think we should get involved military in this?

[Ibanez]

And, just so I'm clear... does anyone actually think we should get involved military in this?

No.

Sorry, let me clarify, HELL NO.
unless there I a clear threat to American lives, we should leave it alone. We can't play soldier everywhere, every time.

[kalm]

I just wish we had Reagan still in office. He would have backed up his rhetoric...unlike Obama...

[UNI88]

So if the Northern Alliance or the Kurds had asked us to come it would have been ok?

Invade Iraq or just the Kurdish areas?

If you're saying all of Iraq... that's not at all analogous. If you're just saying the Kurdish areas... sure. I think the Kurds should have their own country and I'm in support of a Kurdistan.

Now, I'm not at all in favor of starting a war with Iraq, Syria, Turkey, and Iran to make a Kurdistan... but, I think it would be completely justified if we did.

Should have listened to TE Lawrence after WWI, but that is another topic entirely.

You're right, they're not analogous unless we're just taking about invading Kurdish Iraq. I just don't think it's justified. Violating the borders of a sovereign nation should require a little bit more than an invitation from a minority population. If that were all it took to justify an invasion than BDKJMU is right that Mexico would be justified in invading southern California if enough people of Mexican decent asked for it.

[UNI88]

And, just so I'm clear... does anyone actually think we should get involved military in this?

No.

Sorry, let me clarify, HELL NO.
unless there I a clear threat to American lives, we should leave it alone. We can't play soldier everywhere, every time.

And I agree with Mark on a military response.

A better question might be should we work with the EU to help keep Ukraine looking to the west.

[CID1990]

Witness the world without an interventionist America-

I'm glad we are getting ready to intentionally reduce our ground forces. We'll have about the 7th or 8th largest standing army in the world. Anything bigger is too much of a temptation for the interventionists.

[TheDancinMonarch]

And, just so I'm clear... does anyone actually think we should get involved military in this?

I certainly don't think we should and I'm not certain that we could. The question is why the idle blather. It certainly doesn't make us look smart or strong.