First, save the incumbents!

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First, save the incumbents!

Post by UNI88 »

Editorial from Sunday's Chicago Trib

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opin ... 6279.story
...Who'll win the right to set legislative boundaries after the 2010 federal census? This we know, little voter: It won't be you. The cliché is a cliché because it's maddeningly correct: In Illinois, lawmakers choose their constituents, not the other way around.

This isn't criminal corruption of the types that ended our last two governorships. It is, though, a key reason we live in The Incumbent State. The power to map lets party leaders keep their Senate and House members in line.

Mapping doesn't dictate the outcome of every race. But maps do corral voters -- mine here, yours over there -- in ways that stifle competition. Safe candidates don't need to develop broad appeal. A less partisan system of drawing district lines would produce more centrists -- and fewer ideologues. And it would put more incumbents at risk of being booted out by voters if they engage in shady practices.
...
There's a better way and Illinois lawmakers should adopt it. The national model for reform is just across the Mississippi River.

Every 10 years, three employees in Iowa's nonpartisan legislative research agency -- a computer wizard, a lawyer and a geographer -- produce maps. Legislators vote the maps up or down. We're cutting corners here, but if all else fails, the Iowa Supreme Court gets involved. That doesn't happen, though: Legislators know that a fair map they dislike could get better, or worse.

Springfield insiders know the Iowa protocol and they hate it. It would diminish their power. So they smirk and say Iowa has fewer minorities. Iowa is a smaller state. Iowa's system won't work in precious Illinois.

Bunk. Iowa officials execute the same exercises that Illinois officials perform to assure compliance with the race-sensitive Voting Rights Act of 1965. What distinguishes Iowa isn't demographics or size. Nor does Iowa have particularly unique mapping software. So, could replication of Iowa's system create more competitive races not just there, but in all 50 states? "There's no reason you couldn't do it everywhere," says Ed Cook, the lawyer in Iowa's mapmaking trio.

What distinguishes Iowa's system are the specific legal principles that lawmakers have built into the Iowa Code. The net effect is that mapmakers wind up following a prioritized list of strict, objective criteria on such variables as what importance to give county borders, how to split urban areas into districts, whether to pay more attention to census tract lines or precinct lines, and so on.

"The system intentionally limits our options as much as possible," Cook says. "We exclude consideration of where incumbents live, party registration of voters, past election results, demographic data like the income of a district." And the inevitable pressure from legislators to skew the map? "They can try. We just ignore it. Our law is clear."
Thoughts?
Being wrong about a topic is called post partisanism - kalm

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It will probably be difficult for MAQA yahoos to overcome the Qult programming but they should give being rational & reasonable a try.

Thank you for your attention to this matter - UNI88
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Re: First, save the incumbents!

Post by TwinTownBisonFan »

I <3 redistricting :)

besides... gerrymandered districts mean stability in representation, and more accurate representation. (a solidly D or R district more accurately reflects it's constituents)

that... and I really love districting... the whole damn process... we've already got the maps drawn here in MN behind the scenes... we'll fuss with them a bit... but we know pretty well where we're headed
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Re: First, save the incumbents!

Post by hank scorpio »

Getting ready for it here in MT.

Last time a nonpartisan group drew up some very nice House and Senate boundries which was of course rejected by the legislature. The end result was not that bad though, as our chambers are split on an almost 1:1 ratio. Our local races can be very close, we have done a recount in House District 58 in 2006 and 2008 with the difference in votes being 3 and 23 respectively.

As far as incumbents go, we have had term limits since 2000, which I am not all that big of a fan off.
Term limits may prompt more Legislative stalemates
By The Associated Press

HELENA - A near record number of lawmakers are being ousted from office by term limits at the close of this session, just as many are pointing to the overall drain on experience as a source of partisanship and impasse.
"It has been an utter disaster," said Eric Feaver, lobbyist for Montana's MEA-MFT teacher's union. "The inability of this Legislature to come to a legislative conclusion is one more piece of evidence that term limits have hurt Montana."

All told, 15 senators and 15 representatives will be termed out, with Republicans taking the hardest hit in both chambers. That is more than in any session since the limits began to take effect in 2000, when 47 veteran legislators hit their service caps.

"This is just the second revolution of term limits having effect in the Senate," said Senate President Bob Story, R-Park City, who has reached his last days after 16 years as a legislator. "One-third of the most experienced members will be gone in the Senate and next session has the potential to have a whole lot of people who are new to the process in it."

Since 1992, Montana's Constitution has prohibited any legislator from serving more than eight years in one chamber in any 16-year period. The limits have been a perennial target for legislation.

"They don't want to go home because the problem you have up here is once people get elected they start to feel they are indispensable," said Rep. Ed Butcher, R-Winifred, who spearheaded the push to establish term limits in Montana.

This session two bills failed that sought to soften the term limit system: one to repeal them altogether and another to shorten the amount of time before legislators can serve again.

In effect, Montana's term limits actually go further than requiring an eight-year hiatus from office, according to a 1997 opinion by the state's attorney general. That's because lawmakers cannot put their name on a ballot until a full eight years has passed. So, as it plays out, a legislator ousted by term limits in 2010 would not be able to run for office in the same chamber again until 2020 or 2022, depending on whether they're vying for a House or Senate seat.

Most lawmakers contend booting them out of office after eight years spurs partisan bickering, increasing the likelihood of deadlock over their one main task - appropriating a budget.

"I would argue that term limits are the biggest cause of the lack of working together," said Rep. Dennis Himmelberger, R-Billings, who has served his eight years in the House but has no Senate plans. "It takes people a while in this institution to form relationships and really that's what it's about is working together to serve the people of Montana."

Those opposing term limits also say they sap power from the Legislature, which they note is the people's branch of the government.

"You empower the executive, you empower the lobbyists and that's not good for the system because then we lose what the citizen Legislature brings," said Rep. Jill Cohenour, D-East Helena, who has hit eight years in the House.

Cohenour sponsored a bill this session to abolish term limits for all state offices. But the measure failed in committee, amid questions about the wisdom of freeing statewide officeholders, such as the governor or secretary of state, from term limits.

Between 1990 and 2000, term limits were enacted in 21 states. But they have been removed in six of those states, by either court order or legislative action.

They have never, however, been removed by popular vote, which is what it would take in Montana where they are part of the Constitution.

"I think it takes a legislative insider to see the changes term limits bring," said Jennie Bowser, senior elections analyst with the National Conference of State Legislators. "The general public really only sees that the capitol hasn't been burned to the ground and laws are still coming out."

Fans of term limits argue the public is wise to stand firm on giving lawmakers an expiration date.

"When you bring fresh ideas and fresh people into the system it makes for much better legislation," Butcher said. "You continually bring fresh input from the real world."

And even many of those who oppose term limits grudgingly admit they value the contributions of young lawmakers who may not have won seats competing against the old guard.

But on the other side, even freshman lawmakers question whether Montana's term limits may be too severe, leaving the Legislature without much of what many refer to as "institutional memory."

"The learning curve is just too steep for a part-time citizen Legislature, said Sen. Taylor Brown, R-Huntley, a first-time legislator. The key is to balance the benefit of having experienced legislators, against the cost of not fostering enough turnover to create fresh perspectives and new ideas."
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Re: First, save the incumbents!

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see... the amateurism that results from term limits is dangerous... on top of that you only have competitive elections at the end of terms when there is an open seat anyway...
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Re: First, save the incumbents!

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TwinTownBisonFan wrote:I <3 redistricting :)

besides... gerrymandered districts mean stability in representation, and more accurate representation. (a solidly D or R district more accurately reflects it's constituents)

that... and I really love districting... the whole damn process... we've already got the maps drawn here in MN behind the scenes... we'll fuss with them a bit... but we know pretty well where we're headed
But does gerrymandering encourage the election of more extreme representatives of either party? If yes, does the limited number of elected officials who have to take a more centrist approach in order to truly represent their constituents contribute to the partisan bickering and lack of respect that gets in the way of the politicians actually leading rather than just posturing?

Take off the "operator" hat for a minute and is gerrymandering really in the best interests of the citizens? I don't want the boilerplate answers that the politicians use to justify their actions, I would like to hear some in depth analysis of why the pro's of gerrymandering actually outweigh the con's.
Being wrong about a topic is called post partisanism - kalm

MAQA - putting the Q into qrazy qanon qult qonspiracy theories since 2015.

It will probably be difficult for MAQA yahoos to overcome the Qult programming but they should give being rational & reasonable a try.

Thank you for your attention to this matter - UNI88
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Re: First, save the incumbents!

Post by TwinTownBisonFan »

UNI88 wrote:
TwinTownBisonFan wrote:I <3 redistricting :)

besides... gerrymandered districts mean stability in representation, and more accurate representation. (a solidly D or R district more accurately reflects it's constituents)

that... and I really love districting... the whole damn process... we've already got the maps drawn here in MN behind the scenes... we'll fuss with them a bit... but we know pretty well where we're headed
But does gerrymandering encourage the election of more extreme representatives of either party? If yes, does the limited number of elected officials who have to take a more centrist approach in order to truly represent their constituents contribute to the partisan bickering and lack of respect that gets in the way of the politicians actually leading rather than just posturing?

Take off the "operator" hat for a minute and is gerrymandering really in the best interests of the citizens? I don't want the boilerplate answers that the politicians use to justify their actions, I would like to hear some in depth analysis of why the pro's of gerrymandering actually outweigh the con's.
No, it's not.

look, incumbents in competitive districts take politically expedient votes... not the right ones. they make the votes that will ensure that their opponents cant run a smear ad against them. so what you get is a lot of pandering bullshit like tax cuts and spending increases because the general public wants it both ways...

long term incumbents tend to not be the sources of partisan bickering, mostly owing to the fact that they have, over the years, developed a rapport with members across the aisle. the guys who usually stir up the partisan rankor are young uns looking to make points or the guys in charge of the campaign committees (NRCC and DCCC).

those long term incumbents also have the staffs that are experienced in performing constituent services that are the true backbone of effective representation. For example, in a race I was on in PA, we beat a one-term incumbent who picked up the seat after 14 years in the hands of another Repub. we opted to KEEP one of their staffers, despite her being a Republican, because she knew the Social Security Admin and the seniors in the district knew her, after 16 years. This was after a NASTY campaign... and it wasn't without grumbling... but it's also very rare that such a thing happens.

Point being... constituents are rarely well served when there is high turnover and constant campaigning. Entrenched incumbents don't have to start running for reelection before they are sworn in for their new term... which I assure you happens for those in swing districts. Frankly speaking, it'd be better for me in terms of employment to have more competitive races, but I don't think it would be best for the country.
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Re: First, save the incumbents!

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TwinTownBisonFan wrote:
UNI88 wrote:
But does gerrymandering encourage the election of more extreme representatives of either party? If yes, does the limited number of elected officials who have to take a more centrist approach in order to truly represent their constituents contribute to the partisan bickering and lack of respect that gets in the way of the politicians actually leading rather than just posturing?

Take off the "operator" hat for a minute and is gerrymandering really in the best interests of the citizens? I don't want the boilerplate answers that the politicians use to justify their actions, I would like to hear some in depth analysis of why the pro's of gerrymandering actually outweigh the con's.
No, it's not.

look, incumbents in competitive districts take politically expedient votes... not the right ones. they make the votes that will ensure that their opponents cant run a smear ad against them. so what you get is a lot of pandering bullshit like tax cuts and spending increases because the general public wants it both ways...

long term incumbents tend to not be the sources of partisan bickering, mostly owing to the fact that they have, over the years, developed a rapport with members across the aisle. the guys who usually stir up the partisan rankor are young uns looking to make points or the guys in charge of the campaign committees (NRCC and DCCC).

those long term incumbents also have the staffs that are experienced in performing constituent services that are the true backbone of effective representation. For example, in a race I was on in PA, we beat a one-term incumbent who picked up the seat after 14 years in the hands of another Repub. we opted to KEEP one of their staffers, despite her being a Republican, because she knew the Social Security Admin and the seniors in the district knew her, after 16 years. This was after a NASTY campaign... and it wasn't without grumbling... but it's also very rare that such a thing happens.

Point being... constituents are rarely well served when there is high turnover and constant campaigning. Entrenched incumbents don't have to start running for reelection before they are sworn in for their new term... which I assure you happens for those in swing districts. Frankly speaking, it'd be better for me in terms of employment to have more competitive races, but I don't think it would be best for the country.
Makes sense although I'm sure that someone could counter your arguments with reasonable alternatives.

What about a state like Illinois where many incumbents are more interested in getting what they can for themselves and their friends than they are in doing what is best for their constituents and the state. Can gerrymandering go too far? And what kind of protections can be put in place to prevent abuses?
Being wrong about a topic is called post partisanism - kalm

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It will probably be difficult for MAQA yahoos to overcome the Qult programming but they should give being rational & reasonable a try.

Thank you for your attention to this matter - UNI88
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Re: First, save the incumbents!

Post by TwinTownBisonFan »

what do you mean gerrymandered in Illinois?!?!

Image

these districts are just fine and totally sensible... :mrgreen:

can it go too far? maybe... but it's more likely that a congressional delegation is merely reflective of state politics... look at places like New Jersey, Illinois, Georgia, Texas, Louisiana and Florida (somewhat) those states have cultures of corruption at all levels... redistricting or not really isn't going to fix it.
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Re: First, save the incumbents!

Post by hank scorpio »

Our congressional district needs to be changed, look at all the squigley lines in the west. :mrgreen:

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Re: First, save the incumbents!

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TwinTownBisonFan wrote:what do you mean gerrymandered in Illinois?!?!

Image

these districts are just fine and totally sensible... :mrgreen:

can it go too far? maybe... but it's more likely that a congressional delegation is merely reflective of state politics... look at places like New Jersey, Illinois, Georgia, Texas, Louisiana and Florida (somewhat) those states have cultures of corruption at all levels... redistricting or not really isn't going to fix it.
I love that district. They've tied together Mexican neighborhoods with Puerto Rican neighborhoods.

Actually, I was talking about state politics and gerrymandering state legislative districts. The winner take all approach to district mapping in Illinois isn't the cause of the corruption but it does make it more difficult to kick out the crooks.
Being wrong about a topic is called post partisanism - kalm

MAQA - putting the Q into qrazy qanon qult qonspiracy theories since 2015.

It will probably be difficult for MAQA yahoos to overcome the Qult programming but they should give being rational & reasonable a try.

Thank you for your attention to this matter - UNI88
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Re: First, save the incumbents!

Post by travelinman67 »

TwinTownBisonFan wrote:I <3 redistricting :)

besides... gerrymandered districts mean stability in representation, and more accurate representation. (a solidly D or R district more accurately reflects it's constituents)

that... and I really love districting... the whole damn process... we've already got the maps drawn here in MN behind the scenes... we'll fuss with them a bit... but we know pretty well where we're headed
Well hell, TTBF...let's just save time and whichever party has the largest voter registration gets all the seats in Congress! Think of the time and money we'll save being able to disband the minority party. No more wasted time and money on elections. No more wasted time debating.

Wow! I'm surprised nobody came up with this idea sooner.




:roll:
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Re: First, save the incumbents!

Post by TwinTownBisonFan »

travelinman67 wrote:
TwinTownBisonFan wrote:I <3 redistricting :)

besides... gerrymandered districts mean stability in representation, and more accurate representation. (a solidly D or R district more accurately reflects it's constituents)

that... and I really love districting... the whole damn process... we've already got the maps drawn here in MN behind the scenes... we'll fuss with them a bit... but we know pretty well where we're headed
Well hell, TTBF...let's just save time and whichever party has the largest voter registration gets all the seats in Congress! Think of the time and money we'll save being able to disband the minority party. No more wasted time and money on elections. No more wasted time debating.

Wow! I'm surprised nobody came up with this idea sooner.
:roll:
I didn't advocate for that at all... what i advocated for is districts that are, as often as possible, clear majority districts. this also means majority GOP districts btw... i just don't think we get anywhere with swing districts drawn to have constant campaigns in them... i dont think it serves anyones interests to have that.
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