Is the Fourpeat bad for I-AA?

[Brock Landers]

I don’t think that NDSU’s success is a bad thing for the FCS, it just raises the bar which is a good thing.

Mount Union and UWW fans say the exact same thing. I think the jury is still out as to whether or not that is true.

Did Montana raise the bar for support and facilities in the Big Sky? Sure... doesn't mean anyone did anything about it. Other than Montana State and it took them like 20 years to get around to it.

So again, it's not NDSU's fault for creating the chasm. It's everyone else's fault for being too incompetent, cheap, stubborn, whatever to do something about it. I guarantee NDSU is the favorite again next August.

[SuperHornet]

Congrats to NDSU winning it again, but is it bad for I-AA? I-A has never had even a threepeat and you'd have to go back to Army in the early 40's for a threepeat in old DI.

Not true. Princeton won or shared the first six championships in a row, only interrupted by a year with no games. After watching Yale take it for a year, Princeton reeled off another 5 in a row and won quite often thereafter until 1906.

Also, while Army won three in a row during WWII from a preponderance of awarding agencies, they only won TWO of the long-standard AP national championships during that era. The AP awarded their 1946 title to 8-0-1 Notre Dame.

[BDKJMU]

Of course it hurts, and you only have to look at DIII to see it - nothing else matters except for Mount Union playing Wisc-Whitewater every year. If you're another DIII school, then you don't exist.

It is a bit like the Marshall issue in the 90's, although that was impacted by Marshall also hosting the title game and in many years getting some favoritism to help increase their chances of getting there.

In an ideal world, there would be more competition, but FCS has fallen on hard times - a whole conference (SoCon) that used to be dominant is now a shell of its former self with all the defections, the CAA's flagship programs are in a pattern of steady decline, and the rest of the subdivision is just treading water as they get closer to DII than to FBS. It's like the whole subdivision is turning into the Patriot League.

Not JMU, but JMU is looking to jump ship and won't be in I-AA for too much longer..

[D1B]

4 peat is an outcome of power 5 changing the landscape. FCS has thinned out. The strong are going to shithole d1 conferences and the weak to D2 or dropped.

It's over.

[BDKJMU]

There are different perspectives from which to view the state of FCS and those from UD seem to be myopic.

Just because UD, like the majority of their fans is old, and has fallen and can't get up, doesn't mean the rest of FCS is in the same boat.

FWIW, Hen fans are some of the most brutally honest fans around. It's not a "because we're down everyone is down", but UD being down certainly hurts I-AA football. Who besides Montana averaged 20k+ fans for a dozen years?

2012 Attendance leaders...
1 AppSt (26k) - gone
3 JMU (23k) - down
4 ODU (20k) - gone
5 Delaware (19k) - down
7 GSU (19k)- gone

Who is taking their place? Nobody. Montana was the only team to average more than 20K this year. have to search pretty hard to find a year like that. You honestly think replacing AppSt, GSU, UD, Furman, JMU... with SUU, CCU, JSU... is an even trade? Please.

-JMU avg 25k in 12', year new stadium opened.
-13' fell to 21k
-This past season JMU avg 21.2k regular season. But unlike the past 2 seasons had a home playoff game over Thanksgiving weekend which only drew 13k+ and drug the attendance avg down to 19.8k.

[GannonFan]

Who's to say Furman, JMU and even UD won't be back at some point?

UD will be back to being good on the field, and probably pretty soon, but those crowds aren't ever coming back. And that's where you start to see the decline happening - FCS football never really drew new fans, but the cost pressures that are there today are forcing pricing issues that drive away the few actual FCS fans there are. UD for instance, will never draw new FCS fans to replace the lifelong FCS fans who have left because no one really draws FCS fans.

[GannonFan]

4 peat is an outcome of power 5 changing the landscape. FCS has thinned out. The strong are going to shithole d1 conferences and the weak to D2 or dropped.

It's over.

This. It isn't a case of NDSU doing something to the rest of FCS, it's a matter of outside pressures doing things to FCS that is causing the thinning out. To deny that it's happening is shortsighted.

[kalm]

4 peat is an outcome of power 5 changing the landscape. FCS has thinned out. The strong are going to shithole d1 conferences and the weak to D2 or dropped.

It's over.

This. It isn't a case of NDSU doing something to the rest of FCS, it's a matter of outside pressures doing things to FCS that is causing the thinning out. To deny that it's happening is shortsighted.

Disagree. The level of on-field talent I see across all of the power conferences is better than it was even just 4 or 5 years ago. This also bears out in some of the FBS match ups. Look at what McNeese and EIU did to San Diego State and UCF last year among others.

It might be another situation for some of the weaker conferences but at least the Big South and NEC both had pretty good seasons with multiple wins over the CAA and Southern.

I also like the fact that more FCS games are viewable now than ever before with Root carrying BSC games of the week and NBC carrying the CAA.

[Gil Dobie]

4 peat is an outcome of power 5 changing the landscape. FCS has thinned out. The strong are going to shithole d1 conferences and the weak to D2 or dropped.

It's over.

This. It isn't a case of NDSU doing something to the rest of FCS, it's a matter of outside pressures doing things to FCS that is causing the thinning out. To deny that it's happening is shortsighted.

The computer rankings that I posted earlier in this thread show more FCS teams in the top 100 of division I in 2014, than there were in 1986, as an example. There is not thinning, just a cycle of different teams having good runs.

[kalm]

This. It isn't a case of NDSU doing something to the rest of FCS, it's a matter of outside pressures doing things to FCS that is causing the thinning out. To deny that it's happening is shortsighted.

The computer rankings that I posted earlier in this thread show more FCS teams in the top 100 of division I in 2014, than there were in 1986, as an example. There is not thinning, just a cycle of different teams having good runs.

And the same thing can be said for attendance. Some schools are down while others like SHSU, EWU, MSU, and JSU are showing significant growth with not only success on the field but expanded marketing and a better price point than nearby FBS programs.

[Cap'n Cat]

NDSU being wooed by Mountain West now:

Salt Lake Tribune - FCS Champs Herd Getting Look From FBS Conference Following 4-Peat.......

[Grizalltheway]

GD it Cappy. When will I ever learn.

[pantherrob82]

D-III is a joke because they same two teams play every fucking year.

[JohnStOnge]

I don't think it's bad for the subdivision. I think what they've done has gotten publicity for I-AA/FCS. I don't recall College Gameday going to I-AA/FCS venues in the past. Maybe so but if they did I don't recall.

[JohnStOnge]

I see where you are getting at, but in the long run, I don't think it does. FCS is adjusting to the loss of a couple strong programs, but NDSU also hit a perfect storm - strong teams from SoCon were down, traditional CAA powers have been down, Montana has had internal issues.


NDSU (and the other Dakota schools) have a nice recruiting edge - only games in their states, and close to three states that put out a good amount of talent, but only one Division one football team each.

The southern teams especially have far more recruiting competition.

I think North Dakota State has just had really good football teams. I mean, during the four year run they were 4-0 against FBS opponents including 3-0 against what are now "Big 5" conference schools. And the Kansas State win was particularly impressive. I doubt you're going to find another I-AA/FCS run of 4-0 against I-A/FBS schools in the history of the subdivision. I haven't looked it up so I"m not 100% certain. But I doubt it.

And I especially doubt that you're going to find another I-AA/FCS program winning three games in a row against teams from what we now call the "Big 5" conferences. Yes I know App State's win over Michigan in 2007 is probably the biggest single win by a I-AA/FCS team over a I-A/FBS opponent. But App State was 1-3 against I-A/FBS opponents during it's three consecutive national titles run. They lost by 13 to 3-9 North Carolina State in 2006.

It ain't just because other programs in the subdivision were down. They have been very, very good.

[GAD_SU]

I don't think it's bad for the subdivision. I think what they've done has gotten publicity for I-AA/FCS. I don't recall College Gameday going to I-AA/FCS venues in the past. Maybe so but if they did I don't recall.

FAMU in 2008 or 2009

[GAD_SU]

I don't think it's bad for the subdivision. I think what they've done has gotten publicity for I-AA/FCS. I don't recall College Gameday going to I-AA/FCS venues in the past. Maybe so but if they did I don't recall.

FAMU in 2008 or 2009

[JohnStOnge]

In an ideal world, there would be more competition, but FCS has fallen on hard times - a whole conference (SoCon) that used to be dominant is now a shell of its former self with all the defections, the CAA's flagship programs are in a pattern of steady decline, and the rest of the subdivision is just treading water as they get closer to DII than to FBS. It's like the whole subdivision is turning into the Patriot League.

I disagree. You're having some good programs move to FBS and other good programs move from Division II. I mean, look at the program we're talking about. North Dakota State is at least as good as any program that's left was. South Dakota State is very good too.

Meanwhile if you're looking at how FCS compares to FBS I don't see any indication that the frequency of wins by I-AA/FCS over I-A/FBS teams is decreasing. We're talking about North Dakota State now and I don't know if there has EVER been a I-AA/FCS program as successful against I-A/FBS as North Dakota State has been after moving to the subdivision from D-II. They have a winning record not only against I-A/FBS but against teams from what we now call the "Big 5" conferences.

Also, though I hate to say it, the Big South is making noise. Coastal Carolina had one heck of a football team this past year. Liberty was pretty darned good as well.

It's just change. Some programs are leaving and other programs are entering. Some traditional powers are down while some traditional also rans are up. The FCS champions of recent years have been as strong, I think, as FCS champions have ever been. Yes I know it's the same team the last four years but I'm talking about even before that.

And North Dakota State was challenged a number of times this year during the playoffs. They only had one "easy" game. The others were won by 3, 7, and 2 points.

[89Hen]

Congrats to NDSU winning it again, but is it bad for I-AA? I-A has never had even a threepeat and you'd have to go back to Army in the early 40's for a threepeat in old DI.

Not true. Princeton won or shared the first six championships in a row, only interrupted by a year with no games. After watching Yale take it for a year, Princeton reeled off another 5 in a row and won quite often thereafter until 1906.

Also, while Army won three in a row during WWII from a preponderance of awarding agencies, they only won TWO of the long-standard AP national championships during that era. The AP awarded their 1946 title to 8-0-1 Notre Dame.

Horney, I-A has only existed since 1978. That's why I said you'd have to go back to Army in the 40's to find a threepeat.

[89Hen]

-JMU avg 25k in 12', year new stadium opened.
-13' fell to 21k
-This past season JMU avg 21.2k regular season. But unlike the past 2 seasons had a home playoff game over Thanksgiving weekend which only drew 13k+ and drug the attendance avg down to 19.8k.

My bad for not being clear. I was really talking about overall, not just attendance.

[Ibanez]

Not true. Princeton won or shared the first six championships in a row, only interrupted by a year with no games. After watching Yale take it for a year, Princeton reeled off another 5 in a row and won quite often thereafter until 1906.

Also, while Army won three in a row during WWII from a preponderance of awarding agencies, they only won TWO of the long-standard AP national championships during that era. The AP awarded their 1946 title to 8-0-1 Notre Dame.

Horney, I-A has only existed since 1978. That's why I said you'd have to go back to Army in the 40's to find a threepeat.

Stupid facts.....

[Ibanez]

I don't think the 4-peat is bad. It shows there's a powerful team in the division. My hope, and I think i'm right, is that the 4 peat has become a motivator for other teams to work hard, recruit better and play stronger so that they can be the ones to dethrone the reigning champs.

[89Hen]

And the same thing can be said for attendance. Some schools are down while others like SHSU, EWU, MSU, and JSU are showing significant growth with not only success on the field but expanded marketing and a better price point than nearby FBS programs.

If you want to talk about attendance...

In 2003 I-AA had 34 teams average over 10K per game, this year... 25

Using Gil Dobie's year 1986... I-AA teams average attendance was 11,064 per game. Now it's 8k.

[89Hen]

Horney, I-A has only existed since 1978. That's why I said you'd have to go back to Army in the 40's to find a threepeat.

Stupid facts.....

OK.

[89Hen]

This. It isn't a case of NDSU doing something to the rest of FCS, it's a matter of outside pressures doing things to FCS that is causing the thinning out. To deny that it's happening is shortsighted.

The computer rankings that I posted earlier in this thread show more FCS teams in the top 100 of division I in 2014, than there were in 1986, as an example. There is not thinning, just a cycle of different teams having good runs.

Meh. Computer rankings of I-AA teams compared to I-A teams have NEVER been accurate. And Massey...

Final Massey rankings:
4. South Dakota State
9. Indiana State
14. Western Illinois
15. Southern Illinois
20. Missouri State

Yet he claims computers don't self-implode on conferences.