Belief v. Non-Belief

[JohnStOnge]

Aside for the religion thing, this hits upon one of my pet "shake my head" phenomena. It's that thing where people say truth is relative, depends on your perspective, etc. Of course that's total nonsense. Truth is truth. It's independent of our perspective. It's not relative. It is what it is whether we know what it is or not. What we think about it makes no difference at all to what the reality is. Affects the way we respond. But that's it.

That's what Newton thought about physics. He was wrong.

The theory of relativity has nothing to do with truth being relative. Newton's views were shown to be limited later on. But that doesn't change the fact that truth does not change based on what someone thinks about it or the perspective one is coming from. It's not relative to perspective or opinion. It is what it is.

[kalm]

So who determines what truth is? Remember you claim to be an agnostic before you answer.

I don't see that as difficult at all. No one determines what truth is. It is what it is. Each of us can try to understand what it is and there are many situations in which it can be established. Like if my freezer is at 0 degrees F and I tell you that if I put a glass of water in it over night it will be ice when I take it out that is the truth. We can test that over and over again and it will always work.

Other things are not so certain. But the point is, whatever the truth is, what we think about it isn't what makes it the truth. It's not a matter of opinion or perspective. There is no such thing as one person's view of what the truth is being different than another's under circumstances where both views are equally valid. That's liberal/progressive nonsense that has unfortunately taken hold as being believed by a lot of people.

You're confusing physics with religious principles. I'm guessing their are far fewer absolutes than you think.

[houndawg]

That's what Newton thought about physics. He was wrong.

The theory of relativity has nothing to do with truth being relative. Newton's views were shown to be limited later on. But that doesn't change the fact that truth does not change based on what someone thinks about it or the perspective one is coming from. It's not relative to perspective or opinion. It is what it is.

Everything is relative. It really is.

[JohnStOnge]

You're confusing physics with religious principles. I'm guessing their are far fewer absolutes than you think.

No I'm not confusing physics and religious principles. There are far MORE absolutes than most people like to think. People like to think what they think about things matters to the truth. And it doesn't. Reality is reality. It doesn't care what we think.

[JohnStOnge]

Everything is relative. It really is.

In one sense things are relative. Like I can say that I'm driving 70 mph to the nearest mph and if I have a very accurate way of measuring that speed it means I'm driving 70 mph relative to the surface of the earth. If I talk about how fast I'm going in absolute terms I'd take the rotation of the earth and the speed at which the earth is moving through space into account.

But whatever I decide to do in terms of how I express the velocity, how fast I'm going doesn't depend on anybody's perspective. It's not relative with respect to which person is looking at the situation. It is what it is. This thing of thinking we can each have our own truth is absolute nonsense. We can each have our own belief with respect to the truth on any matter is. But there is always only one truth with respect to any question of sufficient specificity.

If two people have different beliefs as to what the truth is on any specific point they can't both be right. There are two basic possibilities: Either one is right and one is wrong or both are wrong.

[Chizzang]

Everything is relative. It really is.

In one sense things are relative. Like I can say that I'm driving 70 mph to the nearest mph and if I have a very accurate way of measuring that speed it means I'm driving 70 mph relative to the surface of the earth. If I talk about how fast I'm going in absolute terms I'd take the rotation of the earth and the speed at which the earth is moving through space into account.

But whatever I decide to do in terms of how I express the velocity, how fast I'm going doesn't depend on anybody's perspective. It's not relative with respect to which person is looking at the situation. It is what it is. This thing of thinking we can each have our own truth is absolute nonsense. We can each have our own belief with respect to the truth on any matter is. But there is always only one truth with respect to any question of sufficient specificity.

If two people have different beliefs as to what the truth is on any specific point they can't both be right. There are two basic possibilities: Either one is right and one is wrong or both are wrong.

Does it hurt to blather out of both sides of your face John..?
In one thread (such as here) you're pragmatic and staunch on the nature of the truth

Other threads you're telling everybody how impressed you are
with illogical people who dismiss the absurdities of their core beliefs and "stay true" to their faith
even in the light of the most obvious and egregious lapses in truth

in fact you support people (and are married to) who have absolutely no interest in "The Truth"
and waive it away - as though it was nonsense - in favor of complete brainwashing bullsh!t



You do entertain - I'll give you that

[Ibanez]

Oh good. ANOTHER thread on religion.

[Wedgebuster]

Oh good. ANOTHER thread on religion.

IMAGINE that..

[CAA Flagship]

The theory of relativity has nothing to do with truth being relative. Newton's views were shown to be limited later on. But that doesn't change the fact that truth does not change based on what someone thinks about it or the perspective one is coming from. It's not relative to perspective or opinion. It is what it is.

Everything is relative. It really is.

Like a Prius on the highway.

[Chizzang]

Oh good. ANOTHER thread on religion.

Probably the single most important topic on this planet for all time
Entire continents are carried in the sway of this topic
millions and millions have given their lives and taken lives in the debate of this one topic
85% of the globe defines itself by this very subject - and its outcome

It is THE topic for all time
and dammit we're here to solve it - so step aside or join in - but no harping like a bitch from the sidelines

[Grizalltheway]

Oh good. ANOTHER thread on religion.

Probably the single most important topic on this planet for all time
Entire continents are carried in the sway of this topic
millions and millions have given their lives and taken lives in the debate of this one topic
85% of the globe defines itself by this very subject - and its outcome

It is THE topic for all time
and dammit we're here to solve it - so step aside or join in - but no harping like a bitch from the sidelines

The only thing to discuss at this point is how best to wean people off of it.

[Chizzang]

Probably the single most important topic on this planet for all time
Entire continents are carried in the sway of this topic
millions and millions have given their lives and taken lives in the debate of this one topic
85% of the globe defines itself by this very subject - and its outcome

It is THE topic for all time
and dammit we're here to solve it - so step aside or join in - but no harping like a bitch from the sidelines

The only thing to discuss at this point is how best to wean people off of it.

Indeed,
Or to apply some kind of perspective when reading ancient books
and understanding the culture of the time from which these ideologies were hatched

We don't read dark ages medical journals and expect to learn how to do brain surgery
We shouldn't read thousand plus year old explanations of things we didn't understand
and expect them to be "THE ANSWER" for all time

[kalm]

You're confusing physics with religious principles. I'm guessing their are far fewer absolutes than you think.

No I'm not confusing physics and religious principles. There are far MORE absolutes than most people like to think. People like to think what they think about things matters to the truth. And it doesn't. Reality is reality. It doesn't care what we think.

Reality as you know it.

[Ibanez]

Oh good. ANOTHER thread on religion.

Probably the single most important topic on this planet for all time
Entire continents are carried in the sway of this topic
millions and millions have given their lives and taken lives in the debate of this one topic
85% of the globe defines itself by this very subject - and its outcome

It is THE topic for all time
and dammit we're here to solve it - so step aside or join in - but no harping like a bitch from the sidelines

If you want to discuss religion, that's fine. However, all participants have to agree that they will not try to change someone's opinion or belief system. Or belittle it. B/c, that's what it will eventually deteriorate into.

Some will choose to blindly believe a bunch of ignorant fisherman were able to write a book. Some will chose to ignore that both books of the Bible are written for different audiences and have human errors in them (i.e. mistranslation). Some will believe that they are 100% accurate stories and will use it to justify everything from spousal abuse to genocide.

Some will believe that they are stories where the truth isn't important, but the moral of the story is. Some will accept it for it what it's worth.

Some won't believe it in it at all and will fight you for doing so.


I think that describes most people.

[Ibanez]

The only thing to discuss at this point is how best to wean people off of it.

Indeed,
Or to apply some kind of perspective when reading ancient books
and understanding the culture of the time from which these ideologies were hatched

We don't read dark ages medical journals and expect to learn how to do brain surgery
We shouldn't read thousand plus year old explanations of things we didn't understand
and expect them to be "THE ANSWER" for all time

But...Jesus!

[kalm]

Probably the single most important topic on this planet for all time
Entire continents are carried in the sway of this topic
millions and millions have given their lives and taken lives in the debate of this one topic
85% of the globe defines itself by this very subject - and its outcome

It is THE topic for all time
and dammit we're here to solve it - so step aside or join in - but no harping like a bitch from the sidelines

If you want to discuss religion, that's fine. However, all participants have to agree that they will not try to change someone's opinion or belief system. Or belittle it. B/c, that's what it will eventually deteriorate into.

Some will choose to blindly believe a bunch of ignorant fisherman were able to write a book. Some will chose to ignore that both books of the Bible are written for different audiences and have human errors in them (i.e. mistranslation). Some will believe that they are 100% accurate stories and will use it to justify everything from spousal abuse to genocide.

Some will believe that they are stories where the truth isn't important, but the moral of the story is. Some will accept it for it what it's worth.

Some won't believe it in it at all and will fight you for doing so.


I think that describes most people.

I don't believe you.

You're wrong.

[89Hen]

My pastor just the other day was orgainzing a rally to kill all non-believers and pillage the town.

[Ibanez]

My Imam just the other day was orgainzing a rally to kill all non-believers and pillage the town.

FIFY

[JohnStOnge]

In one thread (such as here) you're pragmatic and staunch on the nature of the truth

Other threads you're telling everybody how impressed you are
with illogical people who dismiss the absurdities of their core beliefs and "stay true" to their faith
even in the light of the most obvious and egregious lapses in truth

You mean liberals/progressives? That's not true. I don't defend them at all.

[JohnStOnge]

BTW I'll backtrack some and say that there's such a thing as opinion and taste. One guy can see two women and think woman A is more attractive than woman B, for instance, while another guy can think woman B is more attractive than woman A. So for the first guy the truth is that woman A is more attractive and for the second guy the truth is that woman B is more attractive.

So yeah OK in cases like that one person's truth can be different than another's.

[kalm]

BTW I'll backtrack some and say that there's such a thing as opinion and taste. One guy can see two women and think woman A is more attractive than woman B, for instance, while another guy can think woman B is more attractive than woman A. So for the first guy the truth is that woman A is more attractive and for the second guy the truth is that woman B is more attractive.

So yeah OK in cases like that one person's truth can be different than another's.

Have you ever seen Jesus art?

Trashy...

[D1B]

There is something great, eternal, and comprehensive about the universe (or the mulit-verse, if you prefer).

There are great truths -- scientific truths, moral truths, and truths about existence -- that are unknowable to us. But those truths exist whether we know them or not.

And in the end, we either share a part of that greatness, and those truths, or we don't.

I think we do.

And I don't think it is right to dismiss the idea that we share in those truths, and that greatness, because we don't understand what that greatness is, or what those truths are.

When I read the Bible and the lessons in there, I couldn't help but feel there was some universal moral truths we do not understand.

For example....

[Wedgebuster]

When I read the Bible and the lessons in there, I couldn't help but feel there was some universal moral truths we do not understand.

For example....

[JoltinJoe]

Oh good. ANOTHER thread on religion.

IMAGINE that..

Put this thread is about trying to find common ground of human experience and intuition.

This thread is not about any particular religion. Another discussion for another day.

Why, given our common ground of experience and intuition, do some people belief and others do not?

I honestly think most non-believers are like houndawg. What they hope for is different than what they think.

On the other hand, I think most believers fear that houndawg is right. No believer is 100% certain (and, if they are, they are deluding themselves).

In the end, isn't this about how much weight we place on intuition? Non-believers think the burden of proof is on the believer. Believers think the burden of proof is on the non-believer.

But in the end, don't just about all of us HOPE that there is something more?

[Pwns]

Again, I hope you're right, but neuroscientists are leaning towards the so-called soul being part of the brain and not something that exists separately from the brain.

There's no "leaning towards" it. It's practically taken as a given and is dogma to the point that you would be publicly ridiculed if you were a neuroscientist if you suggested there was any metaphysical workings of the brain. On some level there's nothing wrong with that as you cannot produce anything useful if you throw up your hands and just explain something as being supernatural or metaphysical. The convenient thing about physicalism, though, is that no matter how many times you fail to explain something physically you can always fall back on "we'll figure it out eventually, people once thought volcanic eruptions were acts of god".

That's not really convincing to me, though. As I was telling Chizz in my AI thread, the puzzle of explaining consciousness is not just a scienctific puzzle, it's also a mathematical puzzle involving information theory and other branches of math most people don't even know exists. Roger Penrose really first suggested you needed to look at the quantum level to have any hope of explaining the workings of the brain, and gradually more mathematicians are coming around to the idea that replicating cognition with computer hardware and classical algorithms isn't possible. And if that is possible at the bare minimum you have to come up with a new physical model of how the brain works.

Quite simply, it is possible there are things that will continue to defy any attempted physical explanation no matter how much effort is put into it because they have no physical explanation. If you don't think that is possible you are not a true free-thinker.