Counter-urbanization

[Winterborn]

How does our internet compare with you’re travels? (Serious question)

What goes through the mind of someone who continually gets closer to you while you are fishing on the crick?

[Winterborn]

I think Comcast is being a pretty good steward of our internets


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

How does our internet compare with you’re travels? (Serious question)

Hard to tell unless you are doing a speed test. I would say ours is about average maybe slightly above based on where I have traveled in Europe. South Korea had the fastest out of all the places I have been.

[AZGrizFan]

If everything the government does is socialism then weren't Trump's tax cuts also socialism at work? Is it socialism when a policeman beats up a minority? Laws against oral intercourse and sodomy are socialism. This taking things to the extreme is fun!

The US Road system is socialism. Not that hard to comprehend. The pooling of common resources to build/maintain. The road network became nationlized early on after the system of private turnpikes/toll ferries/bridges proved to be inadequate for the new nations commerce.

As for the rest, have you been studying analogy 101 from Z? Cause they are whacked!

Socialism: the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

Using your example, ANY form of government would be considered "socialism". City. County. State. Federal. ALL socialists?

[Chizzang]

You say "an argument can be made that internet access should be treated as a utility"
The American taxpayer bought and paid for our broadband infrastructure... as a matter of fact
by 2006 we had paid $300 billion and then another $100 billion since then

The argument that needs to be "made" is why it shouldn't be a utility owned by Americans

I think Comcast is being a pretty good steward of our internets

That is because you don't actually know anything about Comcast...
So that opinion makes perfect sense



if by good steward you mean
embezzling 50% of the taxpayer's dollars and paying their executive team bonuses
while delivering less than half of what they contracted to deliver

if that's what you mean by a good steward then we're on the same page

[dbackjon]

The US Road system is socialism. Not that hard to comprehend. The pooling of common resources to build/maintain. The road network became nationlized early on after the system of private turnpikes/toll ferries/bridges proved to be inadequate for the new nations commerce.

As for the rest, have you been studying analogy 101 from Z? Cause they are whacked!

Socialism: the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

Using your example, ANY form of government would be considered "socialism". City. County. State. Federal. ALL socialists?

To some extent, yes.

The distribution networks (roads) are publicly owned. As they should be. Much more efficient.

[UNI88]

I think Comcast is being a pretty good steward of our internets

That is because you don't actually know anything about Comcast...
So that opinion makes perfect sense



if by good steward you mean
embezzling 50% of the taxpayer's dollars and paying their executive team bonuses
while delivering less than half of what they contracted to deliver

if that's what you mean by a good steward then we're on the same page

When you took CID's bait did you see Kalm standing too close, fvcking with his fishing zen?

[AZGrizFan]

Using your example, ANY form of government would be considered "socialism". City. County. State. Federal. ALL socialists?

To some extent, yes.

The distribution networks (roads) are publicly owned. As they should be. Much more efficient.

Who builds roads? Not who coordinates the building of roads. Who ACTUALLY builds them? Who owns the means of production?

Hint: It ain't the state/feds....

And another hint: To 88's point, "the roads" are a mere gnat on the ass of the entire "means of distribution"....

[dbackjon]

To some extent, yes.

The distribution networks (roads) are publicly owned. As they should be. Much more efficient.

Who builds roads? Not who coordinates the building of roads. Who ACTUALLY builds them? Who owns the means of production?

Hint: It ain't the state/feds....

And another hint: To 88's point, "the roads" are a mere gnat on the ass of the entire "means of distribution"....

Depends on the locale. Some places have their own road crews. Some bid it out, but it is still being paid for by the commons.

[UNI88]

Who builds roads? Not who coordinates the building of roads. Who ACTUALLY builds them? Who owns the means of production?

Hint: It ain't the state/feds....

And another hint: To 88's point, "the roads" are a mere gnat on the ass of the entire "means of distribution"....

Depends on the locale. Some places have their own road crews. Some bid it out, but it is still being paid for by the commons.

I agree that the government (local, state & fed) have a role in maintaining infrastructure. Of course if they weren't so short-sighted and inefficient, they might spend more money and use higher grade materials so they lasted longer and they didn't have to spend so much on maintaining them. That would be good for the taxpayers who pay for them and people who use them but bad for the road building contractors and the Operating Engineers and Laborers who do the work. Ultimately, the people pay when the government picks winners and losers.

[Winterborn]

Depends on the locale. Some places have their own road crews. Some bid it out, but it is still being paid for by the commons.

I agree that the government (local, state & fed) have a role in maintaining infrastructure. Of course if they weren't so short-sighted and inefficient, they might spend more money and use higher grade materials so they lasted longer and they didn't have to spend so much on maintaining them. That would be good for the taxpayers who pay for them and people who use them but bad for the road building contractors and the Operating Engineers and Laborers who do the work. Ultimately, the people pay when the government picks winners and losers.

Back when I was in college one of the civil engineering professor's gave us non-civil engineers a short overview on what civil engineers do and in the Q&A after the presentation somebody asked this same question. The answer he gave was that they could easily make the roads last 10+ years but it would double the cost and the way the bidding process works only the initial cost is considered.

And like you mentioned, it is also good for the road contractors and other business that depend on repairing the roads. From a tax payer point of view (and engineer) I would rather have the better roads with less maintenance then our current system

[AZGrizFan]

Who builds roads? Not who coordinates the building of roads. Who ACTUALLY builds them? Who owns the means of production?

Hint: It ain't the state/feds....

And another hint: To 88's point, "the roads" are a mere gnat on the ass of the entire "means of distribution"....

Depends on the locale. Some places have their own road crews. Some bid it out, but it is still being paid for by the commons.

Where's that money come from?

[UNI88]

I agree that the government (local, state & fed) have a role in maintaining infrastructure. Of course if they weren't so short-sighted and inefficient, they might spend more money and use higher grade materials so they lasted longer and they didn't have to spend so much on maintaining them. That would be good for the taxpayers who pay for them and people who use them but bad for the road building contractors and the Operating Engineers and Laborers who do the work. Ultimately, the people pay when the government picks winners and losers.

Back when I was in college one of the civil engineering professor's gave us non-civil engineers a short overview on what civil engineers do and in the Q&A after the presentation somebody asked this same question. The answer he gave was that they could easily make the roads last 10+ years but it would double the cost and the way the bidding process works only the initial cost is considered.

And like you mentioned, it is also good for the road contractors and other business that depend on repairing the roads. From a tax payer point of view (and engineer) I would rather have the better roads with less maintenance then our current system

Yep. 10+ years ago I asked an executive (now the CEO) with a road-building company that question and got almost the exact same answer.

[AZGrizFan]

Back when I was in college one of the civil engineering professor's gave us non-civil engineers a short overview on what civil engineers do and in the Q&A after the presentation somebody asked this same question. The answer he gave was that they could easily make the roads last 10+ years but it would double the cost and the way the bidding process works only the initial cost is considered.

And like you mentioned, it is also good for the road contractors and other business that depend on repairing the roads. From a tax payer point of view (and engineer) I would rather have the better roads with less maintenance then our current system

Yep. 10+ years ago I asked an executive (now the CEO) with a road-building company that question and got almost the exact same answer.

What kills me is when they build a road, then almost immediately go back and start tearing up portions of it to "add" shit like HOV lanes, or lights, or a median barrier, etc., etc....It's like roads are never "done".

They've been working on a 30-mile stretch of I-35 between Waco & Dallas for the entire 7 years I've lived in Texas....it looks pretty much the same now as when I got here....not a single mile (that I'm aware of) has been opened to the public.

[UNI88]

Yep. 10+ years ago I asked an executive (now the CEO) with a road-building company that question and got almost the exact same answer.

What kills me is when they build a road, then almost immediately go back and start tearing up portions of it to "add" shit like HOV lanes, or lights, or a median barrier, etc., etc....It's like roads are never "done".

They've been working on a 30-mile stretch of I-35 between Waco & Dallas for the entire 7 years I've lived in Texas....it looks pretty much the same now as when I got here....not a single mile (that I'm aware of) has been opened to the public.

I don't know about Texas but in Illinois there is a convergence of interests. The highway contractors and the Operating Engineers and Laborers unions are very politically active and influential so you have Republicans and Democrats willing to throw money at road construction. I would expect that the highway contractors in Texas are also active and influential but I don't know how powerful the unions are.

[Winterborn]

Yep. 10+ years ago I asked an executive (now the CEO) with a road-building company that question and got almost the exact same answer.

What kills me is when they build a road, then almost immediately go back and start tearing up portions of it to "add" shit like HOV lanes, or lights, or a median barrier, etc., etc....It's like roads are never "done".

They've been working on a 30-mile stretch of I-35 between Waco & Dallas for the entire 7 years I've lived in Texas....it looks pretty much the same now as when I got here....not a single mile (that I'm aware of) has been opened to the public.

There are road projects in Texas (as I am sure you are aware of) that have been going on for decades. My brother was telling me about one section of overpass in I believe it was Dallas, that was tore down before it ever was driven on due to plans changing.

[AZGrizFan]

What kills me is when they build a road, then almost immediately go back and start tearing up portions of it to "add" shit like HOV lanes, or lights, or a median barrier, etc., etc....It's like roads are never "done".

They've been working on a 30-mile stretch of I-35 between Waco & Dallas for the entire 7 years I've lived in Texas....it looks pretty much the same now as when I got here....not a single mile (that I'm aware of) has been opened to the public.

There are road projects in Texas (as I am sure you are aware of) that have been going on for decades. My brother was telling me about one section of overpass in I believe it was Dallas, that was tore down before it ever was driven on due to plans changing.

And dback can correct me if I'm wrong, but I distinctly remember the road crews in AZ working 3 shifts, 24 hrs a day, mostly (as it was explained to me) because of the cost of the heavy equipment and that it was too expensive to have sitting idle.

Here in TX, they work ONE shift. 8-5. So all roads being worked on are shut down during peak traffic hours. Brilliant.

[Winterborn]

There are road projects in Texas (as I am sure you are aware of) that have been going on for decades. My brother was telling me about one section of overpass in I believe it was Dallas, that was tore down before it ever was driven on due to plans changing.

And dback can correct me if I'm wrong, but I distinctly remember the road crews in AZ working 3 shifts, 24 hrs a day, mostly (as it was explained to me) because of the cost of the heavy equipment and that it was too expensive to have sitting idle.

Here in TX, they work ONE shift. 8-5. So all roads being worked on are shut down during peak traffic hours. Brilliant.

If you have the employee's, heavy equipment is made to run 24/7 if you want it to.

That is brilliant. You also don't have a winter like we do to worry about so you should be able to finish construction projects faster.

[AZGrizFan]

And dback can correct me if I'm wrong, but I distinctly remember the road crews in AZ working 3 shifts, 24 hrs a day, mostly (as it was explained to me) because of the cost of the heavy equipment and that it was too expensive to have sitting idle.

Here in TX, they work ONE shift. 8-5. So all roads being worked on are shut down during peak traffic hours. Brilliant.

If you have the employee's, heavy equipment is made to run 24/7 if you want it to.

That is brilliant. You also don't have a winter like we do to worry about so you should be able to finish construction projects faster.

that's a good one!

[CID1990]

I think Comcast is being a pretty good steward of our internets

That is because you don't actually know anything about Comcast...
So that opinion makes perfect sense



if by good steward you mean
embezzling 50% of the taxpayer's dollars and paying their executive team bonuses
while delivering less than half of what they contracted to deliver

if that's what you mean by a good steward then we're on the same page

OK fellas time for the intervention

Normal Clitz would have either completely ignored ^^^^ this sophomoric troll OR replied with an equally ridiculous but deliciously clever retort (which is why I troll him in the first place)

AND he rejected an offer of a hug from me

Something is clearly wrong with our man Clitz

[dbackjon]

Yep. 10+ years ago I asked an executive (now the CEO) with a road-building company that question and got almost the exact same answer.

What kills me is when they build a road, then almost immediately go back and start tearing up portions of it to "add" shit like HOV lanes, or lights, or a median barrier, etc., etc....It's like roads are never "done".

They've been working on a 30-mile stretch of I-35 between Waco & Dallas for the entire 7 years I've lived in Texas....it looks pretty much the same now as when I got here....not a single mile (that I'm aware of) has been opened to the public.

The freeway that I use (101) has been added onto 3 times in the last 10 years. They keep adding lanes. Their reasoning is that they are building for projected needs over the next 5 years (5-year funding plans) so they only get enough to do pieces at a time.

I call BS on some of that - some of the freeway sections were so poorly designed (losing lanes within a mile of a major freeway junction) that it seemed to be done on purpose to provide an excuse to do it all over again in a couple of years.

[dbackjon]

There are road projects in Texas (as I am sure you are aware of) that have been going on for decades. My brother was telling me about one section of overpass in I believe it was Dallas, that was tore down before it ever was driven on due to plans changing.

And dback can correct me if I'm wrong, but I distinctly remember the road crews in AZ working 3 shifts, 24 hrs a day, mostly (as it was explained to me) because of the cost of the heavy equipment and that it was too expensive to have sitting idle.

Here in TX, they work ONE shift. 8-5. So all roads being worked on are shut down during peak traffic hours. Brilliant.

On some of the roads they do work 24/7, except in the summer, when it is too hot for concrete/asphalt to set properly during the day. That is one thing Arizona does well - shifting as much work to night/weekends as possible.

[AZGrizFan]

What kills me is when they build a road, then almost immediately go back and start tearing up portions of it to "add" shit like HOV lanes, or lights, or a median barrier, etc., etc....It's like roads are never "done".

They've been working on a 30-mile stretch of I-35 between Waco & Dallas for the entire 7 years I've lived in Texas....it looks pretty much the same now as when I got here....not a single mile (that I'm aware of) has been opened to the public.

The freeway that I use (101) has been added onto 3 times in the last 10 years. They keep adding lanes. Their reasoning is that they are building for projected needs over the next 5 years (5-year funding plans) so they only get enough to do pieces at a time.

I call BS on some of that - some of the freeway sections were so poorly designed (losing lanes within a mile of a major freeway junction) that it seemed to be done on purpose to provide an excuse to do it all over again in a couple of years.

Jon, remember when they first built the 101, got done, it sat for about 90 days, then they went back and shut down an entire lane in both directions to add the cable barriers? And then right after they got done adding cable barriers, they shut it down again to add another lane on the inside, tear up the cable barriers and put in concrete barriers....WAFJ....it’s like there’s ZERO planning ahead....

[dbackjon]

The freeway that I use (101) has been added onto 3 times in the last 10 years. They keep adding lanes. Their reasoning is that they are building for projected needs over the next 5 years (5-year funding plans) so they only get enough to do pieces at a time.

I call BS on some of that - some of the freeway sections were so poorly designed (losing lanes within a mile of a major freeway junction) that it seemed to be done on purpose to provide an excuse to do it all over again in a couple of years.

Jon, remember when they first built the 101, got done, it sat for about 90 days, then they went back and shut down an entire lane in both directions to add the cable barriers? And then right after they got done adding cable barriers, they shut it down again to add another lane on the inside, tear up the cable barriers and put in concrete barriers....WAFJ....it’s like there’s ZERO planning ahead....

I remember that. They didn't add the cable barriers until after a couple head on crashes. They didn't think a freeway with a narrow median needed any type of barriers between the lanes...

[Chizzang]

That is because you don't actually know anything about Comcast...
So that opinion makes perfect sense



if by good steward you mean
embezzling 50% of the taxpayer's dollars and paying their executive team bonuses
while delivering less than half of what they contracted to deliver

if that's what you mean by a good steward then we're on the same page

OK fellas time for the intervention

Normal Clitz would have either completely ignored ^^^^ this sophomoric troll OR replied with an equally ridiculous but deliciously clever retort (which is why I troll him in the first place)

AND he rejected an offer of a hug from me

Something is clearly wrong with our man Clitz

I thought I did a nice job there...
it was clearly a love tap on your part and I fully enjoyed the opportunity to retort my drivel



and BTW I'm still waiting for anybody on this political board
to seriously defend the idea that this entire thing isn't Left & Right rhetoric
with pretend centrist playing the logical discourse card over and over again

[UNI88]

OK fellas time for the intervention

Normal Clitz would have either completely ignored ^^^^ this sophomoric troll OR replied with an equally ridiculous but deliciously clever retort (which is why I troll him in the first place)

AND he rejected an offer of a hug from me

Something is clearly wrong with our man Clitz

I thought I did a nice job there...
it was clearly a love tap on your part and I fully enjoyed the opportunity to retort my drivel



and BTW I'm still waiting for anybody on this political board
to seriously defend the idea that this entire thing isn't Left & Right rhetoric
with pretend centrist playing the logical discourse card over and over again

Are you telling me that the honeymoon ended before you two even got a room and consummated the relationship? What a letdown!

It's not that this entire thing isn't Left & Right rhetoric (although I am hurt that you think I'm a pretend centrist), it's that while your outlook and posts were typically liberal you could be relied upon to take an occasional shot at the hypocrisy of left as well. Those shots have disappeared and your cynicism and disdain appears to be aimed solely at the right.

Obama was not the end of the republic that Conks thought he would be and Trump won't be the end of the republic that Donks think he will be. Despite Jon and Trip's protestations to the contrary, we will survive this and hopefully be better for it.

I miss the old Cleets who wasn't so bitter and didn't take sh!t so seriously.