Hamilton Wins, Jackson Loses

[Skjellyfetti]

Also, the matter of secession was briefly debated at the constitutional convention. When it became clear that no state would ratify the Constitution if it could not withdraw from the Union at some point, the delegates decided to omit any prohibition against secession.

Link?

I think you're confusing the Constitutional Convention and the Continental Congress that drafted the Articles of Confederation.

The Articles of Confederation were originally titled "Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union" - that was dropped to leave open the door for secession as you stated.

I've never heard of any debate at the Constitutional Convention about secession. But, if there was, I'd be happy to take a look - that would certainly change my views on the legality of secession.

[Ibanez]

Secession was never a legal right and no reading of the Constitutional convention nor the debates that happened after that would imply that. Even Madison walked back his arguing in the Virginia Resolutions after realizing the extrapolations that he wrought and Jefferson's contribution to the principle of secession was always considered to be of a revolutionary spirit other than a legal one (our Revolution was illegal, per se, for example). Jackson's interpretation (and precedent does account for things) was that there was no Union if states could leave at will or ignore laws at will and that there wouldn't have been a Union or Constitution in the first place if those things were permissible or a "right".

As for the shots fired, well, there wasn't any real immediate danger from Fort Sumter staying in Union hands so there was no "force" that required the South to fire (assuming Fort Sumter itself was the initial "first" shot). And of course, there was no Northern military action that caused South Carolina and the rest of the South to secede in the first place, just simply the result of a Presidential election of a person whom the South didn't want. Just as the war doesn't happen without slavery, the war doesn't happen, obviously, if the South hadn't then, as a result of slavery, seceded.

Of course secession was a right. The 10th Amendment makes that clear. Also, the matter of secession was briefly debated at the constitutional convention. When it became clear that no state would ratify the Constitution if it could not withdraw from the Union at some point, the delegates decided to omit any prohibition against secession.

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

That's a weak argument.

[OL FU]

Of course secession was a right. The 10th Amendment makes that clear. Also, the matter of secession was briefly debated at the constitutional convention. When it became clear that no state would ratify the Constitution if it could not withdraw from the Union at some point, the delegates decided to omit any prohibition against secession.

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

That's a weak argument.

I'm not certain that it was debated at the convention, but it was certainly debated by the states. My recollection is that both Virginia and New York believed they had secured the right to secession (but it is just recollection).

Certainly they wouldn't put a provision for secession in the constitution thus deeming its failure before it even started. And certainly they wouldn't have stated that secession isn't permissible for exactly the same reason.

[CAA Flagship]

Tubman it is, according to CNN.

Let's go ahead and put women and minorities on everything now just to get the attack on white men over with. We already sent the message to my generation's white men that we are evil. Maybe spare my sons' generation.

So what is Tubman famous for? Is she the person on the pancake syrup bottle?

[93henfan]

Tubman it is, according to CNN.

Let's go ahead and put women and minorities on everything now just to get the attack on white men over with. We already sent the message to my generation's white men that we are evil. Maybe spare my sons' generation.

So what is Tubman famous for? Is she the person on the pancake syrup bottle?

You're thinking of Aunt Jemima!

Harriet Tubman invented the rail system for coal miners that they use underground.

[GannonFan]

Tubman it is, according to CNN.

Let's go ahead and put women and minorities on everything now just to get the attack on white men over with. We already sent the message to my generation's white men that we are evil. Maybe spare my sons' generation.

So what is Tubman famous for? Is she the person on the pancake syrup bottle?

Escaped slave, Underground Railroad Conductor, a scout as well as a nurse for the Union during the Civil War, and a leading suffragist for the women's vote in her later years. Not too shabby considering the role women were kept in in her day.

[CAA Flagship]

So what is Tubman famous for? Is she the person on the pancake syrup bottle?

You're thinking of Aunt Jemima!

Harriet Tubman invented the rail system for coal miners that they use underground.

Oh snap.

I got confused because they look alike.

[YoUDeeMan]

So what is Tubman famous for? Is she the person on the pancake syrup bottle?

You're thinking of Aunt Jemima!

Harriet Tubman invented the rail system for coal miners that they use underground.

Of course, that led to the discovery of Black Lung...she she gets credit for that, too.

[CAA Flagship]

You're thinking of Aunt Jemima!

Harriet Tubman invented the rail system for coal miners that they use underground.

Of course, that led to the discovery of Black Lung...she she gets credit for that, too.

#BlackLungsMatter

[bandl]

Tubman it is, according to CNN.

Let's go ahead and put women and minorities on everything now just to get the attack on white men over with. We already sent the message to my generation's white men that we are evil. Maybe spare my sons' generation.

So what is Tubman famous for? Is she the person on the pancake syrup bottle?

I think she was the maid in 'Billy Madison'

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWoIfaViyhc[/youtube]

[CAA Flagship]

So what is Tubman famous for? Is she the person on the pancake syrup bottle?

I think she was the maid in 'Billy Madison'

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWoIfaViyhc[/youtube]

No. You are thinking about Sweet Brown

[BDKJMU]

So what would be wrong with just leaving the bills as they are?

[CAA Flagship]

So what would be wrong with just leaving the bills as they are?

Why do you hate Weezy?

[GannonFan]

So what would be wrong with just leaving the bills as they are?

They update the bills every so often now anyway due to anti-counterfitting so they'll be worked on regardless if they didn't change the pictures. And there's certainly nothing wrong with change (ha!, no pun intended) as there are a whole bunch of dead, old, White guys on the bills now. There's a law that living people can't be on money so might as well find some dead old, non-white people to change things up a bit. There's only 7 bill denominations in circulation anymore so might as well pick one and start from there.

[93henfan]

So what would be wrong with just leaving the bills as they are?

How can you continue putting evil white men on money? We are trying to marginalize white men in this society. Hello!

[CitadelGrad]

Also, the matter of secession was briefly debated at the constitutional convention. When it became clear that no state would ratify the Constitution if it could not withdraw from the Union at some point, the delegates decided to omit any prohibition against secession.

Link?

I think you're confusing the Constitutional Convention and the Continental Congress that drafted the Articles of Confederation.

The Articles of Confederation were originally titled "Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union" - that was dropped to leave open the door for secession as you stated.

I've never heard of any debate at the Constitutional Convention about secession. But, if there was, I'd be happy to take a look - that would certainly change my views on the legality of secession.

No, you fucking idiot. I know what I'm talking about.

Read a fucking book.

[EWURanger]

This whole thing...yes, the recognition is cool.

But at the end of the day, it's just another silly example of people continuing to confuse symbology with any kind of meaningful change.

[GannonFan]

Link?

I think you're confusing the Constitutional Convention and the Continental Congress that drafted the Articles of Confederation.

The Articles of Confederation were originally titled "Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union" - that was dropped to leave open the door for secession as you stated.

I've never heard of any debate at the Constitutional Convention about secession. But, if there was, I'd be happy to take a look - that would certainly change my views on the legality of secession.

No, you **** idiot. I know what I'm talking about.

Read a **** book.

So the whole basis you have to support you position is a lot of bluster and the 10th amendment? How about the part in Article 1 Section 10 of the Constitution? How about the Supremacy Clause in Article VI? Heck, at least something that was talked about was that the Preamble actually said "We the People", and not "We the States", and even the likes of Patrick Henry realized the distinction that made this a permanent union. What books are you talking about, let's have evidence.

[CAA Flagship]

This whole thing...yes, the recognition is cool.

But at the end of the day, it's just another silly example of people continuing to confuse symbology with any kind of meaningful change.

This X1000.

Like red turf.

[CAA Flagship]

No, you **** idiot. I know what I'm talking about.

Read a **** book.

So the whole basis you have to support you position is a lot of bluster and the 10th amendment? How about the part in Article 1 Section 10 of the Constitution? How about the Supremacy Clause in Article VI? Heck, at least something that was talked about was that the Preamble actually said "We the People", and not "We the States", and even the likes of Patrick Henry realized the distinction that made this a permanent union. What books are you talking about, let's have evidence.

How about the Sanity Clause? Or maybe you don't believe in Sanity Clause?

[CitadelGrad]

No, you **** idiot. I know what I'm talking about.

Read a **** book.

So the whole basis you have to support you position is a lot of bluster and the 10th amendment? How about the part in Article 1 Section 10 of the Constitution? How about the Supremacy Clause in Article VI? Heck, at least something that was talked about was that the Preamble actually said "We the People", and not "We the States", and even the likes of Patrick Henry realized the distinction that made this a permanent union. What books are you talking about, let's have evidence.

Article 1, Section 10 prevents states from entering into treaties or confederations with foreign powers. The Southern states seceded from the United States and therefore were themselves a foreign power. This article in no way prohibits secession.

The Supremacy Clause establishes federal supremacy when state law conflict with federal laws. It does not prohibit secession.

Again, the United States Constitution, as it appeared in 1860, did not prohibit secession. The 10th Amendment clearly states that powers not reserved to the federal government are powers that may be exercised by the people and the states. Since the federal government did not reserve the power to compel states to remain in the Union against their will, the power of secession was a prerogative of the states.

[Vidav]

The good news is we can debate about the war all day but what really matters is the traitors lost and the country remained whole.

[Ibanez]

Link?

I think you're confusing the Constitutional Convention and the Continental Congress that drafted the Articles of Confederation.

The Articles of Confederation were originally titled "Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union" - that was dropped to leave open the door for secession as you stated.

I've never heard of any debate at the Constitutional Convention about secession. But, if there was, I'd be happy to take a look - that would certainly change my views on the legality of secession.

No, you fucking idiot. I know what I'm talking about.

Read a fucking book.

Didn't The Citadel teach you any class?

Or knowledge, for that matter?

I agree with JellyBelly, you are confusing the Articles of Confederation and the Constitution.

James Madison says

Montpellier, Decr 23, 1832.
Dr. Sir I have received yours of the 19th, inclosing some of the South Carolina papers. There are in one of them some interesting views of the doctrine of secession; one that had occurred to me, and which for the first time I have seen in print; namely that if one State can at will withdraw from the others, the others can at will withdraw from her, and turn her, nolentem, volentem, out of the union. Until of late, there is not a State that would have abhorred such a doctrine more than South Carolina, or more dreaded an application of it to herself. The same may be said of the doctrine of nullification, which she now preaches as the only faith by which the Union can be saved.
I partake of the wonder that the men you name should view secession in the light mentioned. The essential difference between a free Government and Governments not free, is that the former is founded in compact, the parties to which are mutually and equally bound by it. Neither of them therefore can have a greater fight to break off from the bargain, than the other or others have to hold them to it......

[dbackjon]

The good news is we can debate about the war all day but what really matters is the traitors lost and the country remained whole.

Yup, and a racist, genocidal Southerner is off the most used bill.






And we have a black President, and will be soon electing a female President.

And, hijab in The Citadel!

[Ivytalk]

The good news is we can debate about the war all day but what really matters is the traitors lost and the country remained whole.

Yup, and a racist, genocidal Southerner is off the most used bill.






And we have a black President, and will be soon electing a female President.

And, hijab in The Citadel!

And we have a guy who needs a new bottle of Midol.