POTUS Debate #1

[kalm]

Trump is way, way closer to the definition of that word than Antifa. Nationalism, racism, corporatism, calls to violence, and most importantly, access to power and forces. It’s not even arguable. He paints that picture with his own words. Hell, Hillary Clinton and modern feminists are closer to being fascists.

I’ll try to be better at calling out the left too (all 5 of us) although Dback and I have tangled several times in the past on similar issues.

It isn't arguable in your opinion. I disagree - using the definition you provided:

• Exalts nation and often race above the individual - exalts nation above the individual = Trump and the alt-right; exalts race above the individual = Antifa and the ctrl-left
• Stands for a centralized autocratic government = both
• Headed by a dictatorial leader = I agree that Trump would love to be a dicatator in the present but I fear this more from Antifa and the ctrl-left for the future
• Severe economic and social regimentation = Antifa and the ctrl-left
• Forcible suppression of opposition = both

Antifa is a purported to be an anti-facist movement but they use facist techniques. Don't you see the irony and utter hypocrisy in that?

I had not heard of the Antifa leadership’s position on economic and social regimentation.

Weird stance for anarchists to take. They better get cracking with creating an administrative infrastructure.

[Ibanez]

That's a stretch Mark.

Trump intending it to be taken that way is probably a stretch, but it seems that is how the group itself took it. That is what really matters and makes it a pretty bad verbal blunder.

Bingo. When the leader of the Proud Boys, and then followers, respond that they are ready and that "Trump basically said to go f*** them up! this makes me so happy", I don't think it's much of a stretch.

Of course, all Trump has to do is come out and clarify what he meant. But we all know that won't happen. It was an easy answer. All one has to do is say, " Yes I condemn white supremacy. Next question."

[89Hen]

https://news.sky.com/story/us-election- ... p-12086267

Bullshit.

The quote energized a bunch of stupid, redneck assholes.

Starting Tuesday night and continuing Wednesday, Trump’s comments were enshrined in memes, including one depicting Trump in one of the Proud Boys’ signature polo shirts. Another meme showed Trump’s quote alongside an image of bearded men carrying American flags and appearing to prepare for a fight. A third incorporated “STAND BACK AND STAND BY” into the group’s logo.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technolo ... lebration/

OK, but I didn't do the interview or write the article.

[89Hen]

It was an easy answer. All one has to do is say, " Yes I condemn white supremacy. Next question."

He should have said it more forcefully instead of saying "Sure, I'm willing to do that."

[SunCoastBlueHen]

Bullshit.

The quote energized a bunch of stupid, redneck assholes.



https://www.washingtonpost.com/technolo ... lebration/

I also wonder how much of this is a problem of our own making. The more we shed light on and illuminate these whacko groups, the more publicity they get. I don't recall hearing much of these groups in the lead up to the 2016 election, but we seemed to find every nook and cranny where they could be after Trump was elected and people wanted to come up with reasons why. Now we've spent 4 years convincing ourselves that these groups are widespread and about to explode. I remember back in my college days (mid 90's) the Elkton chapter of the KKK won a permit to march in Newark - there was a lot of angst and vitriol in the student newspaper and how this was the ending of the world, and in the end something like five homely-looking guys in robes walked down Main Street and hardly anyone noticed. I'm not saying we ignore whacko fringe groups, but at the same time I think we do ourselves a disservice by breathing life into these groups as we make them out to be far more than they actually are.

All of the above certainly makes a fair point, but it was still a stupid thing for the President to say. I agree that the attention gives undue recognition to a group that doesn't warrant it ("Proud Boys" might be the stupidest name for a group I have ever heard), but it also lights a fire under a much larger group that shares a similar mindset. Intentional or not, Trump bolstered the right fringe as a whole with his words. This hasn't been the first time.

[Ibanez]

It was an easy answer. All one has to do is say, " Yes I condemn white supremacy. Next question."

He should have said it more forcefully instead of saying "Sure, I'm willing to do that."

Like saying yes? "I'm willing to do it," isn't a condemnation.

He must think he'd appear weak or lose part of his base if comes down hard on a hate group.

[Ibanez]

Trump intending it to be taken that way is probably a stretch, but it seems that is how the group itself took it. That is what really matters and makes it a pretty bad verbal blunder.

https://news.sky.com/story/us-election- ... p-12086267

Enrique Tarrio, international chairman of the group, told Sky News he did not see the president's words as an endorsement of his group, and that Mr Biden had made a "crucial mistake" in naming them as racists.

So he neither endorsed nor denounced them. That makes it better, I guess.

So Enrique and some of the members are going to take action based off Trumps direction, as it appears. They've confirmed as much when the leader of the group and others confirmed that they're standing by and that "Trump basically said to go f*** them up! this makes me so happy".

[89Hen]

He must think he'd appear weak or lose part of his base if comes down hard on a hate group.

Of course. Like not condemning Antifa on the left. I don't know who they think they'd lose by not condemning hate groups.

But you do have to keep in mind that if you don't raise your fist with BLM, you are a racist according to the left. So it IS tough to appease them.

[89Hen]

Not sure this video will work here, so I'll post it two ways...

phpBB [video]

https://www.facebook.com/MisterReagan/v ... 6805499204

[Ibanez]

He must think he'd appear weak or lose part of his base if comes down hard on a hate group.

Of course. Like not condemning Antifa on the left. I don't know who they think they'd lose by not condemning hate groups.

But you do have to keep in mind that if you don't raise your fist with BLM, you are a racist according to the left. So it IS tough to appease them.

Agreed. Both sides have the " You're with me or against me" mentality. It's dangerous.

Quick story:
My friend and I were putting our bikes back on our cars this morning when another group of guys rode into the parking lot. Both white, i'd say in their 40s. They're having a loud conversation and one of them, in vocal fry, says, " I'm so tired of social and racial injustice." The other guy agrees and then says Biden is trying to end it. My friend is a bleeding heart liberal, he's voting Biden but even he had to roll his eyes and started a rant about this "bullshit 'woke' mentality".

[UNI88]

It isn't arguable in your opinion. I disagree - using the definition you provided:

• Exalts nation and often race above the individual - exalts nation above the individual = Trump and the alt-right; exalts race above the individual = Antifa and the ctrl-left
• Stands for a centralized autocratic government = both
• Headed by a dictatorial leader = I agree that Trump would love to be a dicatator in the present but I fear this more from Antifa and the ctrl-left for the future
• Severe economic and social regimentation = Antifa and the ctrl-left
• Forcible suppression of opposition = both

Antifa is a purported to be an anti-facist movement but they use facist techniques. Don't you see the irony and utter hypocrisy in that?

I had not heard of the Antifa leadership’s position on economic and social regimentation.

Weird stance for anarchists to take. They better get cracking with creating an administrative infrastructure.

Hold it, I thought Antifa was an idea and didn't have leadership.

Economic and social regimentation = Green New Deal; forced "repatriation" of homes; using intimidation and violence to stamp out different political, economic and social views, etc.

You want to focus on the benign aspects of the ctrl-left and the malignant aspects of the alt-right while Uumpa Truumpas do the opposite.

[kalm]

I had not heard of the Antifa leadership’s position on economic and social regimentation.

Weird stance for anarchists to take. They better get cracking with creating an administrative infrastructure.

Hold it, I thought Antifa was an idea and didn't have leadership.

Economic and social regimentation = Green New Deal; forced "repatriation" of homes; using intimidation and violence to stamp out different political, economic and social views, etc.

You want to focus on the benign aspects of the ctrl-left and the malignant aspects of the alt-right while Uumpa Truumpas do the opposite.

Who/where are their leaders?

How will they implement their radical agenda? When is the government take over occurring or will it be shear strength of numbers and Molotovs?

I denounced the violence and destruction of property at the start. I’ve also said several times that both sides need to go home, and that Antifa isn’t helping Democrats win elections.

Would you like me to put a “both sides do it” disclaimer in my signature?

[BDKJMU]

Proud Boys have denied being white supremacists, and have themselves rejected white supremacy.

If a group has ties to white supremacist groups and is based on that the fact that WHITE MEN are under siege and there for will do what it takes to protect the white man then they might be not be so pure as the driven snow.


I had a relative who was in the KKK back in the 90s. He denied they were a hate group. Doesn't make it true.

So, moving on, you're fine with the POTUS telling a militant group to stand by (seemingly for his orders?) in case the election doesn't turn his way or something? Please. GTFO

What "white supremacist groups" do the Proud Boys have ties to, and according to whom?

[BDKJMU]

Proud Boys have denied being white supremacists, and have themselves rejected white supremacy.

If a group has ties to white supremacist groups and is based on that the fact that WHITE MEN are under siege and there for will do what it takes to protect the white man then they might be not be so pure as the driven snow.


I had a relative who was in the KKK back in the 90s. He denied they were a hate group. Doesn't make it true.

So, moving on, you're fine with the POTUS telling a militant group to stand by (seemingly for his orders?) in case the election doesn't turn his way or something? Please. GTFO

Replace white with black there and you basically have BLM. Not only did Biden refuse to disavow ANTIFA, he wasn't even asked to disavow BLM, which we know he wouldn't do.

[kalm]

If a group has ties to white supremacist groups and is based on that the fact that WHITE MEN are under siege and there for will do what it takes to protect the white man then they might be not be so pure as the driven snow.


I had a relative who was in the KKK back in the 90s. He denied they were a hate group. Doesn't make it true.

So, moving on, you're fine with the POTUS telling a militant group to stand by (seemingly for his orders?) in case the election doesn't turn his way or something? Please. GTFO

What "white supremacist groups" do the Proud Boys have ties to, and according to whom?

I don’t know if they have ties to other groups and McGinnes is a provocateur who probably doesn’t believe most of his own bullshit.

McInnes is a co-founder of Vice magazine and one of the world’s foremost purveyors of xenophobic content. “I love being white and I think it’s something to be very proud of,” he told The New York Times in 2003. “I don’t want our culture diluted. We need to close the borders now and let everyone assimilate to a Western, white, English-speaking way of life.”

He called Jada Pinkett Smith a “monkey actress” in 2016, and in 2017 he chatted with Alex Jones about whether women “deserve” to be assaulted if they stay out late. Also in 2017, McInnes released a video titled “10 Things I Hate About Jews” in which he regurgitated anti-Semitic stereotypes and defended Holocaust denial. In 2018, he compared female journalists to “a colostomy bag for various strangers’ semen,” and said that women reporting sexual harassment at work are “proof that women don’t belong in the workforce.”

https://www.mediamatters.org/gavin-mcin ... 4vhyrXmEFs

[DuckDuckGriz]

Here's an honest question for the board that I've been wrestling with.

Do you think this will continue to be a country where you can openly protest what you consider to be fascist policies and authoritarianism?
Do you think an organized (peaceful) protest will exist without being labeled ANTIFA?

[Ibanez]

If a group has ties to white supremacist groups and is based on that the fact that WHITE MEN are under siege and there for will do what it takes to protect the white man then they might be not be so pure as the driven snow.


I had a relative who was in the KKK back in the 90s. He denied they were a hate group. Doesn't make it true.

So, moving on, you're fine with the POTUS telling a militant group to stand by (seemingly for his orders?) in case the election doesn't turn his way or something? Please. GTFO

Replace white with black there and you basically have BLM. Not only did Biden refuse to disavow ANTIFA, he wasn't even asked to disavow BLM, which we know he wouldn't do.

Deflect. All you do is deflect. You can't help yourself. Trump could come out and say, " Fuck all you "n-word" motherfuckers!" and you would come on here going, " but but Hiliary called them super predators in the 90s and LBJ called them...."

Fucking deflector.

[Ibanez]

If a group has ties to white supremacist groups and is based on that the fact that WHITE MEN are under siege and there for will do what it takes to protect the white man then they might be not be so pure as the driven snow.


I had a relative who was in the KKK back in the 90s. He denied they were a hate group. Doesn't make it true.

So, moving on, you're fine with the POTUS telling a militant group to stand by (seemingly for his orders?) in case the election doesn't turn his way or something? Please. GTFO

What "white supremacist groups" do the Proud Boys have ties to, and according to whom?

According to the FBI. If you want to know, do the research. Quit be a lazy, low information voter.

[Ibanez]

Here's an honest question for the board that I've been wrestling with.

Do you think this will continue to be a country where you can openly protest what you consider to be fascist policies and authoritarianism?
Do you think an organized (peaceful) protest will exist without being labeled ANTIFA?

Honestly, it's freedom of speech until you say something that upsets someone else. Both sides think they have the monopoly on truth and righteousness and the meaning of liberty and freedom. Anyone not adhereing to either sides' language and perspectives is a "insert pejorative" here."

Antifa/BLM aren't doing themselves any favors by trying to claim the peaceful protest angle while at the same time allowing their protest devolve into riots and looting.

[UNI88]

What "white supremacist groups" do the Proud Boys have ties to, and according to whom?

I don’t know if they have ties to other groups and McGinnes is a provocateur who probably doesn’t believe most of his own bullshit.

McInnes is a co-founder of Vice magazine and one of the world’s foremost purveyors of xenophobic content. “I love being white and I think it’s something to be very proud of,” he told The New York Times in 2003. “I don’t want our culture diluted. We need to close the borders now and let everyone assimilate to a Western, white, English-speaking way of life.”

He called Jada Pinkett Smith a “monkey actress” in 2016, and in 2017 he chatted with Alex Jones about whether women “deserve” to be assaulted if they stay out late. Also in 2017, McInnes released a video titled “10 Things I Hate About Jews” in which he regurgitated anti-Semitic stereotypes and defended Holocaust denial. In 2018, he compared female journalists to “a colostomy bag for various strangers’ semen,” and said that women reporting sexual harassment at work are “proof that women don’t belong in the workforce.”

https://www.mediamatters.org/gavin-mcin ... 4vhyrXmEFs

That's pretty damning. It's one thing to be proud to be white, it's another to be a misogynistic anti-semite talking about cultural dilution and assimilation.

[Ibanez]

The Proud Boys, with their white, male only membership, is a docile community watch program. Nothing to worry about. They're just a group of middle-aged, middle-management men looking to protect their suburbs.

[UNI88]

Here's an honest question for the board that I've been wrestling with.

Do you think this will continue to be a country where you can openly protest what you consider to be fascist policies and authoritarianism?
Do you think an organized (peaceful) protest will exist without being labeled ANTIFA?

I hope so. I'm sympathetic to the issues. but not the methods and would like to see the protesters follow in the footsteps of Martin Luther King Jr. and practice non-violence.

Let me ask you a question related to the protests - if ACAB (all cops are bad/bastards) because they don't stop racist cops then aren't all protesters bad/bastards because they don't stop looters and rioters?

[89Hen]

Here's an honest question for the board that I've been wrestling with.

Do you think this will continue to be a country where you can openly protest what you consider to be fascist policies and authoritarianism?
Do you think an organized (peaceful) protest will exist without being labeled ANTIFA?

There are tons of peaceful protests every day that aren't labeled ANTIFA because there aren't masked young folks dressed in black with red symbols of communism and socialism carrying sticks and shields. I don't recall any of the Kavanaugh protests being labelled ANTIFA.

[89Hen]

FTR, I denounce the Proud Boys, the Klan, Illinois Nazis (all Nazis) and any other hate group with the exception of the Judean Peoples Front.

Just wanted to get in front of that before the loony left comes after me.

[UNI88]

FTR, I denounce the Proud Boys, the Klan, Illinois Nazis (all Nazis) and any other hate group with the exception of the Judean Peoples Front.

Just wanted to get in front of that before the loony left comes after me.