Disgraceful

[SDHornet]

[CID1990]

There is some word going around that the 2 Para is sending armed patrols into Kabul, extracting UK citizens, Irish citizens, and their Afghan helpers

Not confirmed yet, but if true .... hoo boy


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SeattleGriz]

There is some word going around that the 2 Para is sending armed patrols into Kabul, extracting UK citizens, Irish citizens, and their Afghan helpers

Not confirmed yet, but if true .... hoo boy


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I read that too. In addition, I read the French were doing the same.

I don't trust Twitter as a news source, but here is where I read it. On a side note, Gen Milley said we sent emails. Just as good as special operations I'm sure.

[Ibanez]

Disgraceful. Dishonorable. Disappointing.

[Ibanez]

Question - why are we now worried about the Taliban. Last year when we negotiated with them it sounded like Taliban-Afghanistan was going to be better than before. They were going to be killing terrorists for us!



*That is a rhetorical question, btw.*

[Ibanez]

What did Biden change other than the timeline? Biden implemented Trump's plan. It didn't work. It's pretty safe to say that it wouldn't have worked for Trump either (unless he renegotiated it).

I've been clear that Biden owns the actual results. I'm not blaming them on Trump; I am pointing out Trump's hypocrisy in crowing about himself and how things would have been different if he were President. The MAGAts can suck up the bullsh!t but I'm not buying it.

Prove Biden used Trump's plan. Trump's plan had phases and was blessed by the UN.

Trump plan also stated there would be big problems if the Taliban didn't follow the plan.

That sounds NOTHING like what Biden did.

We all know Afghanistan was going to be shit after we left, but it's how Biden executed. Biden hasnt followed one thing Trump did, so why did he follow Trump's plan now?

What was Trump's plan other than leave by May.? I genuinely do not know. Do you know what it was because after 5 days of news articles and countless posts...I haven't seen it. I'd be curious as to what Trump had planned.

Maybe it's like Trump's health care plan. It was going to be released any day now....

[Ibanez]

OK lazy, here you go ...

Trump's agreement was negotiated without the participation of the Afghan government (kind of like Nixon negotiating with North Vietnam without the government of South Vietnam) had 4 main points:

• Taliban would prevent the use of the soil of Afghanistan by those against the security of the US and its allies
• Withdrawal of all foreign forces from Afghanistan
• The Taliban will negotiate with the Afghan government beginning on March 10, 2020
• A permanent cease-fire will be on the agenda of the negotiations

Where does it say that the Taliban can't take over the country once the US withdraws?

This is 100% on Biden but Trump's BS that it would have been different if he were still President is just that - bullsh!t.

Thank you.

I never said that the Taliban wouldn't take over-everone knew that would happen. I said that Trump warned the Taliban not to mess with the plan or all hell would break loose.

Regardless of all that, Biden did not get all the civilians out first. He also closed the military base and only left the local airport as the means to get out of Dodge.

You really think that was the plan? To leave those most vulnerable? Trump also was planning to destroy weapons and bases. You are really reaching if you think Biden followed Trump's plan as it was supposed to happen.

You don't know what the Trump plan would've been (aside from what Uni posted). You can't really compare what Biden did to what Trump MIGHT'VE DONE. It's a stupid argument. TRUMP MIGHT"VE closed the airbase. Maybe not. Who knows? Who cares? Of course Trump is going to say he would've done it perfectly. Who is going to come out and say, " Yeah...i'd fuck it up as bad if not worse"?

Bringing in Trump is a deflection and a moot point. He negotiated the "peace", executed it for 9-10 months (or so) and then handed over the plan. If
a mistake was made before January 20, 2021 at 12PM, then it's his fault. Everything afterwards is on Biden.

Biden should've renegotiated if he felt the original plan wasn't good.
Biden should've had the civilians out before anything in Kabul was handed over.
Biden should've had everything classified removed / damaged in an orderly fashion.
Biden should've had the Afghani nationals prioritized.
Biden should've had Bagram abandoned as the last transport with the very last cargo of souls/materials left the tarmac.
Biden failed. End of story. Period.

[Ibanez]

AZ,

I completely understand where you are coming from and in many way's agree with your disagreement. I looked at it this way, for 4 years Trump voters were called names (and worse in some cases) by the media and a segment of politicians and it was wrong. There should of been an agree to disagree and then move on (but that doesn't generate clicks and rile up a base). I voted for the guy the second time (not the first) because based on the research I did, Biden was a windsock and had about as much morals as Trump did. He just was very good at putting on a particular persona and said the right things to a media that was more than content to not dig.

I spent about 40 hours doing research this past election (federal,state, and local), which is about 10-15 hours more than I typically spend on any given election year. For me it came down to Trump and Jo Jurgensen. I did not like Trump as a person (still feel the same), nor did I like his lack of tact in handling certain situations/usage of Twitter among other things. What I did like was some of his policies (much more so than what Biden would do based on his track record and being a Delawarean), but I was still strongly considering Jorgensen (I did not like Spike initially but currently much more favorable towards him). Jurgensen lost me with the way she handled a couple situations and the lack of a backbone she demonstrated in those that I knew she would need in DC to implement her platform. Another item that factored heavily into my consideration was the '92 election with Perot, Clinton, and Bush. Were Perot split the results and allowed Clinton to win.

My thoughts when writing the post that I did was that I (and we as a country, IMHO) need to take the high road and while I may disagree with someones choices, I am not going to beat them up over it. I get the "not Trump" vote, the guy was/is an ass. Do I agree with their choice, no, but I support them to have the right to choose without calling them names (not saying you did and you have been very civil) and dehumanizing them like some Dem's did to Trump voters. Personally, I think their vote was looking at the situation from an emotional and short sited perspective, but those that did vote that way, with what is coming out about his "leadership style" with Afghanistan, now have an objective example of why they should of looked a bit deeper and consider other factors (and maybe "mean" tweets were not that big of a deal). The high road also takes the emotional response (investment) we all have in a decision we make, out of the equation a bit. Nobody likes to have something rubbed in their face and when that has been done to me in the past, I tend to want to do the opposite of what they want, just to poke them in the eye so to speak.

Some people will learn from this situation and some people will not. Will Rogers once said: "There are three types of men. The ones that learn by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves." Not everyone is perfect and born with a conservative mindset ( ), some have to "pee on the electric fence" so to speak before they learn. And there are going to be a segment that never do grow and learn. I would rather spend my time debating those that have shown they are capable of learning and let the rest wallow in the darkness of their own creation.

Time is of a very limited commodity, and I am not going to waste it on those that are incapable of learning. It is why I first joined this board after being on AGS (the discussion and viewpoints were much greater here than there), as for the most part posters here, outside of a few exceptions that keep things interesting, have shown the ability to learn and grow. I probably will never agree completely with most on this board, but I still would have a beer with them as I respect their opinions (well mostly ).

And most of this is not directed at you or the conversation going on here but something that I have been contemplating for a couple of years and this was an excuse to type it up and free up some brain space. Some people will read this and some will skim it like a JSO screed, but even if one person reads it and maybe thinks a bit about a voting decision next time, it was worth my effort.

I don’t disagree with your post at all. Two points stick out, though: YOU did your research. Most voters do not (and that’s on both sides of the aisle). But the corollary to that is that ANYONE who was an “informed” voter who STILL pulled the lever for Biden simply because he wasn’t Trump (and theoretically wasn’t an “ass”, although one could argue otherwise), cannot NOW step forward and claim they never would have expected this. This has been Biden’s MO his entire time in congress. Almost without exception. So, as I told Mark, to feign surprise that this is how this was handled is disingenuous. Anyone with a brainstem knew that Biden would/could fuck up a wet dream….and here we are.

I held my nose and voted Trump in 2020 also, (and also having not voted for him in 2016)….but really, which is worse? Being an ass? Or 50 years of proven incompetence?

Yeah - because voters ALWAYS expect a monumental screw up. I did my research. Biden, with a group around him, to me was the lesser of 2 evils. Besides...it's not like my vote mattered. I'm in MAGA country. He won by nearly 60% here.

And don't get holier than thou acting like Trump was a pure as the driven snow. Anyone with a brainstem knew that he's a corrupt, deceitful, disloyal man who serves only himself. Those aren't leadership qualities. Don't pretend he's anything else.

[AZGrizFan]

I don’t disagree with your post at all. Two points stick out, though: YOU did your research. Most voters do not (and that’s on both sides of the aisle). But the corollary to that is that ANYONE who was an “informed” voter who STILL pulled the lever for Biden simply because he wasn’t Trump (and theoretically wasn’t an “ass”, although one could argue otherwise), cannot NOW step forward and claim they never would have expected this. This has been Biden’s MO his entire time in congress. Almost without exception. So, as I told Mark, to feign surprise that this is how this was handled is disingenuous. Anyone with a brainstem knew that Biden would/could fuck up a wet dream….and here we are.

I held my nose and voted Trump in 2020 also, (and also having not voted for him in 2016)….but really, which is worse? Being an ass? Or 50 years of proven incompetence?

Yeah - because voters ALWAYS expect a monumental screw up. I did my research. Biden, with a group around him, to me was the lesser of 2 evils. Besides...it's not like my vote mattered. I'm in MAGA country. He won by nearly 60% here.

And don't get holier than thou acting like Trump was a pure as the driven snow. Anyone with a brainstem knew that he's a corrupt, deceitful, disloyal man who serves only himself. Those aren't leadership qualities. Don't pretend he's anything else.

To you he was lesser of two evils. You were wrong. Do better research.

The devil you know (Biden) vs the devil you don’t know (Trump).

[Ibanez]

Yeah - because voters ALWAYS expect a monumental screw up. I did my research. Biden, with a group around him, to me was the lesser of 2 evils. Besides...it's not like my vote mattered. I'm in MAGA country. He won by nearly 60% here.

And don't get holier than thou acting like Trump was a pure as the driven snow. Anyone with a brainstem knew that he's a corrupt, deceitful, disloyal man who serves only himself. Those aren't leadership qualities. Don't pretend he's anything else.

To you he was lesser of two evils. You were wrong. Do better research.

The devil you know (Biden) vs the devil you don’t know (Trump).

God, I love you AZ.

[CitadelGrad]

[andy7171]

Here's a couple of things I would assume about Trumps plan...
1- get the unarmed citizens and friendlies out before the armed ones.
2- keep Bagram open until #1 is accomplished.

After that, who knows, nuke the base?

Keep in mind, I'm just a dopey ex jock with no military or LE experience.

[CID1990]

Yeah - because voters ALWAYS expect a monumental screw up. I did my research. Biden, with a group around him, to me was the lesser of 2 evils. Besides...it's not like my vote mattered. I'm in MAGA country. He won by nearly 60% here.

And don't get holier than thou acting like Trump was a pure as the driven snow. Anyone with a brainstem knew that he's a corrupt, deceitful, disloyal man who serves only himself. Those aren't leadership qualities. Don't pretend he's anything else.

To you he was lesser of two evils. You were wrong. Do better research.

The devil you know (Biden) vs the devil you don’t know (Trump).

I thought Biden was the lesser of two weevils

[UNI88]

Here's a couple of things I would assume about Trumps plan...
1- get the unarmed citizens and friendlies out before the armed ones.
2- keep Bagram open until #1 is accomplished.

After that, who knows, nuke the base?

Keep in mind, I'm just a dopey ex jock with no military or LE experience.

You know what they say about assuming ...

[HI54UNI]

[89Hen]

I voted for Biden expecting him to be………………………….Biden.

And I’d vote for him over Trump again.

Trump made our allies laugh at us. Biden makes our enemies laugh at us. Take your pick.

I was only partly right.

Trump made our allies laugh at us and our enemies hate us. Biden makes our enemies laugh at us and our allies hate us.

[SDHornet]

There is some word going around that the 2 Para is sending armed patrols into Kabul, extracting UK citizens, Irish citizens, and their Afghan helpers

Not confirmed yet, but if true .... hoo boy


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I've seen tweets on this. French are sending out their units to get their people as well...

...but our leadership says we can't send out SOF to get our people. Just when you think this can't get any worse.

[SDHornet]

[AZGrizFan]

How in the world can those two risks be determined to be the same? One is an unprotectable airport in the middle of an out of control city of 4.7 million….the other is a dual runway airbase in the middle of our largest military presence in the country.

More retardation. Milley needs to GO. He’s an embarrassment.

[Ibanez]

Trump made our allies laugh at us. Biden makes our enemies laugh at us. Take your pick.

I was only partly right.

Trump made our allies laugh at us and our enemies hate us. Biden makes our enemies laugh at us and our allies hate us.

AAHH! The ol' switcherro

[Ibanez]

How in the world can those two risks be determined to be the same? One is an unprotectable airport in the middle of an out of control city of 4.7 million….the other is a dual runway airbase in the middle of our largest military presence in the country.

More retardation. Milley needs to GO. He’s an embarrassment.

So Milley is ANOTHER example of Trump putting the wrong people into powerful positions? Another example of Trumps inablity to identify quality personnel? I thought he was going to be surrounded by the best people.


Gee...thanks Trump!!!



From what i've read and heard, Milley advocated against pulling out and was ignored by Biden.

The nation’s top general declined on Sunday to endorse either of the sudden announcements on Afghan troop withdrawals that came out of the White House last week.

The nation’s top general declined on Sunday to endorse either of the sudden announcements on Afghan troop withdrawals that came out of the White House last week.

By LARA SELIGMAN, ANDREW DESIDERIO, NATASHA BERTRAND and NAHAL TOOSI

04/14/2021 04:45 PM EDT

Updated: 04/15/2021 07:43 AM EDT

The military spent more than a decade urging three different American presidents to stay in Afghanistan. With President Joe Biden’s decision this week to withdraw all U.S. forces by Sept. 11, they finally lost the battle.

“We cannot continue this cycle of extending or expanding our military presence in Afghanistan, hoping to create ideal conditions for the withdrawal and expecting a different result,” Biden said Wednesday in a speech announcing the decision. “I'm now the fourth United States president to preside over American troop presence in Afghanistan. Two Republicans, two Democrats. I will not pass this responsibility on to a fifth.”

As Biden weighed a full exit from the country this spring, top military leaders advocated for keeping a small U.S. presence on the ground made up primarily of special operations forces and paramilitary advisers, arguing that a force of a few thousand troops was needed to keep the Taliban in check and prevent Afghanistan from once again becoming a haven for terrorists, according to nine former and current U.S. officials familiar with the discussions.

Gen. Mark Milley, chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, as well as the four-star commanders of U.S. Forces-Afghanistan, Central Command and Special Operations Command, were emphatic proponents of this strategy, the current and former officials said, some of whom spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive planning.

For nearly two decades, U.S. presidents have followed the advice of top military leaders and kept troops in Afghanistan. But last week President Biden ovverode the brass and announced a complete withdrawal.

But in the end, Biden and his top national security deputies did what no previous president has done successfully — they overrode the brass.

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/04/1 ... tan-481556


I think some historical context is fitting - Biden overrode the experts.

[AZGrizFan]

How in the world can those two risks be determined to be the same? One is an unprotectable airport in the middle of an out of control city of 4.7 million….the other is a dual runway airbase in the middle of our largest military presence in the country.

More retardation. Milley needs to GO. He’s an embarrassment.

So Milley is ANOTHER example of Trump putting the wrong people into powerful positions? Another example of Trumps inablity to identify quality personnel? I thought he was going to be surrounded by the best people.


Gee...thanks Trump!!!

I don’t give two shits WHO put him there, he needs to go.

[Ibanez]

So Milley is ANOTHER example of Trump putting the wrong people into powerful positions? Another example of Trumps inablity to identify quality personnel? I thought he was going to be surrounded by the best people.


Gee...thanks Trump!!!

I don’t give two shits WHO put him there, he needs to go.

I was trolling you. Look at my revision - sounds like he and the other top brass were ignored (which we already know). If anyone certainly needs to go...it's Biden.

[SeattleGriz]

[CitadelGrad]