Govt Census Bureau Out of Control

[native]

overzealous worker, clearly - but no sense in trying to make more out of it than what is there. considering that it is illegal not to participate in the census and huge percentages don't even bother to do that - and very rarely is someone fined for failing to comply... it's not worth getting too worked up over... this couple had every right to be pissed about this guy - especially the threatening of fines...

Bullsh!t!

The joker going door to door was following orders. Unrelenting intrusive questioning was official policy for the 2010 Census for EVERYONE who failed to answer the entire questionnaire, including (and especially) the racial and ethnic heritage questions. The fines for failure to comply is part of what Census workers are officially taught.

I was one of the jokers going door to door and supervising a team of another dozen "quality assurance" enumerators who went door to door under my direction. As a supervisor, I drank all the kool-aid that I considered to be Constitutional, but rebelled against un-Constitutional directives. Two of my three colleagues (one an outspoken Dem, one unknown and me) joined me in pushing back hard against this kind of harrassment.

Another official policy for the QA follow up teams was to ask questions of NEIGHBORS for a certain number of questionnaires. I followed this procedure only when the respondent had moved and was no longer available. When the respondent still lived at the address, I did NOT follow procedures. Instead, I engaged the original repondent straight up whenever they were available. I advised the people who reported to me to do the same. Can you imagine a Census worker asking your neighbor how many kids you have, their names, ages, ethnicity and heritage?

You should also be aware that the questionnaires are filled out in PENCIL. In some cases, if the management did not like the answer, they changed it. I come to this shocking conclusion from the remarks made by another student in one of our supervisor class discussions, who had previously worked as a headquarters clerk. She bragged about herself and her colleagues changing the submitted answer of "AMERICAN" to the more politically correct answer of "CAUCASIAN" at management direction. The manager to whom I reported would not do such a thing. I submitted a complaint up the chain of command with no response.

[native]

these citizens do not want to take part. one refusal should be enough.

Then they shouldn't get the benefit of any government provided assistance or functions.

It's kind of like registering your car. Should you just be able to refuse and that is enough? Is it too personal for the government to know how many cars you own?

If you refuse to register it annd use it you can be fined. So take the easy route, quit yer bitching, and register your damn car.

Our rights do not come from the government.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.

This does not mean, and since the Declaration has never meant "majority rule." We live in a republic with checks and balances against both the tyranny of the "king" and the tyranny of the mob.

[Chizzang]

Then they shouldn't get the benefit of any government provided assistance or functions.

It's kind of like registering your car. Should you just be able to refuse and that is enough? Is it too personal for the government to know how many cars you own?

If you refuse to register it annd use it you can be fined. So take the easy route, quit yer bitching, and register your damn car.

Our rights do not come from the government.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.

This does not mean, and since the Declaration has never meant "majority rule." We live in a republic with checks and balances against both the tyranny of the "king" and the tyranny of the mob.

Most Liberals forget this country is a Republic...
Most Republicans forget it's country not an Empire


oh well

[native]

Our rights do not come from the government.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.

This does not mean, and since the Declaration has never meant "majority rule." We live in a republic with checks and balances against both the tyranny of the "king" and the tyranny of the mob.

Most Liberals forget this country is a Republic...
Most Republicans forget it's country not an Empire


oh well

Correct on both points!

[JohnStOnge]

Obviously the problem is that we actually have laws establishing fines for not participating in a survey like that. We actually have laws compelling participating in such surveys.

The Constitution says Congress is to count the People. That's it. It doesn't impose an obligation on the part of the People to do anything at all. What the Census Bureau does nowadays goes way beyond simply counting people.

I find it amazing that ANYONE supports the idea that government should be empowered to force people to answer questions about their health status, how much they weigh, etc. In this case Census Bureau staff decided not to fine the people involved. That's great. But it should not even be their decision. There should be no such potential for fines.

And I"m sure they have the standard Federal forms warning at the bottom about being subject to jail time and fines if you falsify any information. So if, for example, a woman lies about her weight she's technically liable.

Whether anyone would, in today's time, actuallyl prosecute such a woman isn't the point. The potential shouldn't even be there.

[TwinTownBisonFan]

overzealous worker, clearly - but no sense in trying to make more out of it than what is there. considering that it is illegal not to participate in the census and huge percentages don't even bother to do that - and very rarely is someone fined for failing to comply... it's not worth getting too worked up over... this couple had every right to be pissed about this guy - especially the threatening of fines...

Bullsh!t!

The joker going door to door was following orders. Unrelenting intrusive questioning was official policy for the 2010 Census for EVERYONE who failed to answer the entire questionnaire, including (and especially) the racial and ethnic heritage questions. The fines for failure to comply is part of what Census workers are officially taught.

I was one of the jokers going door to door and supervising a team of another dozen "quality assurance" enumerators who went door to door under my direction. As a supervisor, I drank all the kool-aid that I considered to be Constitutional, but rebelled against un-Constitutional directives. Two of my three colleagues (one an outspoken Dem, one unknown and me) joined me in pushing back hard against this kind of harrassment.

Another official policy for the QA follow up teams was to ask questions of NEIGHBORS for a certain number of questionnaires. I followed this procedure only when the respondent had moved and was no longer available. When the respondent still lived at the address, I did NOT follow procedures. Instead, I engaged the original repondent straight up whenever they were available. I advised the people who reported to me to do the same. Can you imagine a Census worker asking your neighbor how many kids you have, their names, ages, ethnicity and heritage?

You should also be aware that the questionnaires are filled out in PENCIL. In some cases, if the management did not like the answer, they changed it. I come to this shocking conclusion from the remarks made by another student in one of our supervisor class discussions, who had previously worked as a headquarters clerk. She bragged about herself and her colleagues changing the submitted answer of "AMERICAN" to the more politically correct answer of "CAUCASIAN" at management direction. The manager to whom I reported would not do such a thing. I submitted a complaint up the chain of command with no response.

the census folks i knew were persistent - but not assholes. otoh - this is Minnesota, we get 80% voter turnout and we got something like a 96% response on the census - so maybe this phenomenon only developed in places where the citizens weren't participating...

[native]

Bullsh!t!

The joker going door to door was following orders. Unrelenting intrusive questioning was official policy for the 2010 Census for EVERYONE who failed to answer the entire questionnaire, including (and especially) the racial and ethnic heritage questions. The fines for failure to comply is part of what Census workers are officially taught.

I was one of the jokers going door to door and supervising a team of another dozen "quality assurance" enumerators who went door to door under my direction. As a supervisor, I drank all the kool-aid that I considered to be Constitutional, but rebelled against un-Constitutional directives. Two of my three colleagues (one an outspoken Dem, one unknown and me) joined me in pushing back hard against this kind of harrassment.

Another official policy for the QA follow up teams was to ask questions of NEIGHBORS for a certain number of questionnaires. I followed this procedure only when the respondent had moved and was no longer available. When the respondent still lived at the address, I did NOT follow procedures. Instead, I engaged the original repondent straight up whenever they were available. I advised the people who reported to me to do the same. Can you imagine a Census worker asking your neighbor how many kids you have, their names, ages, ethnicity and heritage?

You should also be aware that the questionnaires are filled out in PENCIL. In some cases, if the management did not like the answer, they changed it. I come to this shocking conclusion from the remarks made by another student in one of our supervisor class discussions, who had previously worked as a headquarters clerk. She bragged about herself and her colleagues changing the submitted answer of "AMERICAN" to the more politically correct answer of "CAUCASIAN" at management direction. The manager to whom I reported would not do such a thing. I submitted a complaint up the chain of command with no response.

the census folks i knew were persistent - but not *******. otoh - this is Minnesota, we get 80% voter turnout and we got something like a 96% response on the census - so maybe this phenomenon only developed in places where the citizens weren't participating...

Some of the the egregious policies - for example the penalties and fines - were written in black and white and included in the training materials, so you cannot let the system entirely off the hook.

Most of the dozen worker-bee Census people I worked with were salt of the earth types from all walks of life and every conceivable political persuasion. Nearly all of them had common sense, respect for the Constitution, and consideration for the privacy of their fellow citizens. The exceptions were the one hyper-activist college professor in my class who made the comment and the political-level political managers who made the policies and tried to enforce them.

[kalm]

Our rights do not come from the government.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.

This does not mean, and since the Declaration has never meant "majority rule." We live in a republic with checks and balances against both the tyranny of the "king" and the tyranny of the mob.

Most Liberals forget this country is a Republic...
Most Republicans forget it's country not an Empire


oh well

It's an imperial constiutional democratic republic.

[BlueHen86]

part of why they don't has to do (as i always understood this, and i could be completely wrong about this -) was that they were either taking pains, or were ordered legislatively to be as little "big brother" as possible in terms of data acquisition. obviously, the joker going door to door in this neighborhood missed the memo.

Bullsh!t!

The joker going door to door was following orders. Unrelenting intrusive questioning was official policy for the 2010 Census for EVERYONE who failed to answer the entire questionnaire, including (and especially) the racial and ethnic heritage questions.

I was one of the jokers going door to door and supervising a team of another dozen "quality assurance" enumerators who went door to door under my direction. As a supervisor, I drank all the kool-aid that I considered to be Constitutional, but rebelled against un-Constitutional directives. Two of my three colleagues (one an outspoken Dem, one unknown and me) joined me in pushing back hard against this kind of harrassment.

Another official policy for the QA follow up teams was to ask questions of NEIGHBORS for a certain number of questionnaires. I followed this procedure only when the respondent had moved and was no longer available. When the respondent still lived at the address, I did NOT follow procedures. Instead, I engaged the original repondent straight up whenever they were available. I advised the people who reported to me to do the same. Can you imagine a Census worker asking your neighbor how many kids you have, their names, ages, ethnicity and heritage?

You should also be aware that the questionnaires are filled out in PENCIL. In some cases, if the management did not like the answer, they changed it. I come to this shocking conclusion from the remarks made by another student in one of our supervisor class discussions, who had previously worked as a headquarters clerk. She bragged about herself and her colleagues changing the submitted answer of "AMERICAN" to the more politically correct answer of "CAUCASIAN" at management direction. The manager to whom I reported would not do such a thing. I submitted a complaint up the chain of command with no response.

Your experience was different from mine. I was a crew leader with 15 enumerators in last years decennial census. If people didn't want to answer a question we let it go, as long as we could get a head count. Lots of people didn't want to give ages and names of their kids, we didn't press them for that information if they didn't want to give it.

We NEVER changed an answer on a census form. If someone said they were white, and it was obvious that they were black, the enumerator was instructed to write white as the response (that happened in one case).

[native]

Bullsh!t!

The joker going door to door was following orders. Unrelenting intrusive questioning was official policy for the 2010 Census for EVERYONE who failed to answer the entire questionnaire, including (and especially) the racial and ethnic heritage questions.

I was one of the jokers going door to door and supervising a team of another dozen "quality assurance" enumerators who went door to door under my direction. As a supervisor, I drank all the kool-aid that I considered to be Constitutional, but rebelled against un-Constitutional directives. Two of my three colleagues (one an outspoken Dem, one unknown and me) joined me in pushing back hard against this kind of harrassment.

Another official policy for the QA follow up teams was to ask questions of NEIGHBORS for a certain number of questionnaires. I followed this procedure only when the respondent had moved and was no longer available. When the respondent still lived at the address, I did NOT follow procedures. Instead, I engaged the original repondent straight up whenever they were available. I advised the people who reported to me to do the same. Can you imagine a Census worker asking your neighbor how many kids you have, their names, ages, ethnicity and heritage?

You should also be aware that the questionnaires are filled out in PENCIL. In some cases, if the management did not like the answer, they changed it. I come to this shocking conclusion from the remarks made by another student in one of our supervisor class discussions, who had previously worked as a headquarters clerk. She bragged about herself and her colleagues changing the submitted answer of "AMERICAN" to the more politically correct answer of "CAUCASIAN" at management direction. The manager to whom I reported would not do such a thing. I submitted a complaint up the chain of command with no response.

Your experience was different from mine. I was a crew leader with 15 enumerators in last years decennial census. If people didn't want to answer a question we let it go, as long as we could get a head count. Lots of people didn't want to give ages and names of their kids, we didn't press them for that information if they didn't want to give it.

We NEVER changed an answer on a census form. If someone said they were white, and it was obvious that they were black, the enumerator was instructed to write white as the response (that happened in one case).

We never changed answers, either. I did not allow it or observe it first hand. My story, as told above, is clearly second hand. However,I believe it based on the observed behavior of this particular individual, combined with the pressure from political-level management to fully complete questionnaires.

If you were a crew leader for enumerators, then you are probably aware that there was a follow up operation called quality assurance interviews, which followed the enumerators by a couple of weeks. Our job was to perform random QA checks of enumerator work to ensure there was no fraud, and to try to finish to the greatest extent possible every single incomplete form turned in by enumerators. Perhaps this is the reason that our experiences were different?