POTUS Debate #1

[DuckDuckGriz]

Here's an honest question for the board that I've been wrestling with.

Do you think this will continue to be a country where you can openly protest what you consider to be fascist policies and authoritarianism?
Do you think an organized (peaceful) protest will exist without being labeled ANTIFA?

I hope so. I'm sympathetic to the issues. but not the methods and would like to see the protesters follow in the footsteps of Martin Luther King Jr. and practice non-violence.

Let me ask you a question related to the protests - if ACAB (all cops are bad/bastards) because they don't stop racist cops then aren't all protesters bad/bastards because they don't stop looters and rioters?

ACAB is an extremist point of view.
All protestors are rioters is an extremist point of view.

If we label anything related to anti-fascism a terrorist or fringe group, are we in effect essentially muffling that form of opposition as legitimate?

And regarding the conflation of riots in the 1960s with the mission of MLK, I will leave this here.

[DuckDuckGriz]

Here's an honest question for the board that I've been wrestling with.

Do you think this will continue to be a country where you can openly protest what you consider to be fascist policies and authoritarianism?
Do you think an organized (peaceful) protest will exist without being labeled ANTIFA?

There are tons of peaceful protests every day that aren't labeled ANTIFA because there aren't masked young folks dressed in black with red symbols of communism and socialism carrying sticks and shields. I don't recall any of the Kavanaugh protests being labelled ANTIFA.

So is it that if you have a sign with a symbol of communism or socialism you are labeled ANTIFA?

I don't think ANTIFA struck the same terrorist label in 2018 that it strikes with half of the country now.

[DuckDuckGriz]

FBI saying antifa is real.

You don't think that there's any risk here that a protest against fascism in the future could lead to an open interpretation of ties to a terrorist organization?

Again, I'm not defending ANTIFA.

I am pondering the consequences of our hyperbolic rhetoric.
The same way I am worried if, in the future, the Portland Police will still respond to a call at my house in North Portland.

[AZGrizFan]

I hope so. I'm sympathetic to the issues. but not the methods and would like to see the protesters follow in the footsteps of Martin Luther King Jr. and practice non-violence.

Let me ask you a question related to the protests - if ACAB (all cops are bad/bastards) because they don't stop racist cops then aren't all protesters bad/bastards because they don't stop looters and rioters?

ACAB is an extremist point of view.
All protestors are rioters is an extremist point of view.

If we label anything related to anti-fascism a terrorist or fringe group, are we in effect essentially muffling that form of opposition as legitimate?

And regarding the conflation of riots in the 1960s with the mission of MLK, I will leave this here.

Except ANTIFA employs FASCIST techniques to allegedly protest against fascism.....

[kalm]

ACAB is an extremist point of view.
All protestors are rioters is an extremist point of view.

If we label anything related to anti-fascism a terrorist or fringe group, are we in effect essentially muffling that form of opposition as legitimate?

And regarding the conflation of riots in the 1960s with the mission of MLK, I will leave this here.

Except ANTIFA employs FASCIST techniques to allegedly protest against fascism.....

What are fascist techniques?

[AZGrizFan]

Except ANTIFA employs FASCIST techniques to allegedly protest against fascism.....

What are fascist techniques?

What they do.

[BDKJMU]

What "white supremacist groups" do the Proud Boys have ties to, and according to whom?

According to the FBI. If you want to know, do the research. Quit be a lazy, low information voter.

You’re the one who made the claim Chizz, so its your job to back it up with link(s), not mine. Quit being lazy.

[kalm]

Who/where are their leaders?

How will they implement their radical agenda? When is the government take over occurring or will it be shear strength of numbers and Molotovs?

I denounced the violence and destruction of property at the start. I’ve also said several times that both sides need to go home, and that Antifa isn’t helping Democrats win elections.

Would you like me to put a “both sides do it” disclaimer in my signature?

Did I touch a nerve? Are you still upset that your post-partisan title was rescinded by the Council?

I don't know who their leaders are. You brought them up.

You have denounced the violence and destruction and occasionally go at it with Jon but you focus your criticism on the right and treat Trip like a little brother that you have to protect from the big, mean conservatives. A true post-partisan is a little less partisan.

* thoughtful moderate.

[89Hen]

What are fascist techniques?

Stinky bait there kalm. You're not that dumb.

[kalm]

What are fascist techniques?

Stinky bait there kalm. You're not that dumb.

I honestly want you guys to describe what fascist techniques are.

[89Hen]

Stinky bait there kalm. You're not that dumb.

I honestly want you guys to describe what fascist techniques are.

#1 shutting down free speech

Done.

[Skjellyfetti]

That's a pretty loose fucking definition.

If we refer to someone on the right, as long as they aren't gassing Jews... then they aren't fascist.
If we refer to someone on the left... if they infringe on someone's free speech... then they're fascist.

Hmm.

An appeals court ruled that Trump blocking citizens on Twitter violates their free speech. So, I'm sure you would argue that Trump is using "fascist techniques" by blocking people on Twitter?

Trump supporters using "fascist techniques" in Virginia
Trump Supporters Disrupt Early Voting in Virginia
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/19/us/p ... ginia.html

[89Hen]

That's a pretty loose fucking definition.

kalm doesn't deserve better. He knows he was fishing, so I gave him a minnow.

[UNI88]

Stinky bait there kalm. You're not that dumb.

I honestly want you guys to describe what fascist techniques are.

You posted a definition of fascism earlier, look at the last part for an example.

[SDHornet]

Who is the head of systemic racism in the US? If there isn't one, we shouldn't be concerned about it.

Yep. To paraphrase:
White Supremacism = loose ideologies under one banner.

Arguing about whether Antifa has a structure and leadership at the national level (SD's provided links to local organizations) is a deflection.

Is there a link between Antifa and violence? If it's fair to ask Trump to denounce the Proud Boys and similar groups, is it fair to ask Biden to denounce Antifa?

[BDKJMU]

What "white supremacist groups" do the Proud Boys have ties to, and according to whom?

I don’t know if they have ties to other groups and McGinnes is a provocateur who probably doesn’t believe most of his own bullshit.

McInnes is a co-founder of Vice magazine and one of the world’s foremost purveyors of xenophobic content. “I love being white and I think it’s something to be very proud of,” he told The New York Times in 2003. “I don’t want our culture diluted. We need to close the borders now and let everyone assimilate to a Western, white, English-speaking way of life.”

He called Jada Pinkett Smith a “monkey actress” in 2016, and in 2017 he chatted with Alex Jones about whether women “deserve” to be assaulted if they stay out late. Also in 2017, McInnes released a video titled “10 Things I Hate About Jews” in which he regurgitated anti-Semitic stereotypes and defended Holocaust denial. In 2018, he compared female journalists to “a colostomy bag for various strangers’ semen,” and said that women reporting sexual harassment at work are “proof that women don’t belong in the workforce.”

https://www.mediamatters.org/gavin-mcin ... 4vhyrXmEFs

McInnes is their founder, but not current leader. Ever heard of a so called "White Supremacist Group" who's current leader, Enrique Tarrio from Miami, is a black Latino, with a double digit % of non white members?

https://heavy.com/news/2018/11/enrique-tarrio/

Mr. Reilly said that about 10% to 20% of Proud Boys activists are people of color, a diverse racial composition that is “extremely well-known in law enforcement,” based on his research.

“Enrique Tarrio, their overall leader, is a Black Cuban dude. The Proud Boys explicitly say they’re not racist. They are an openly right-leaning group and they’ll openly fight you — they don’t deny any of this — but saying they’re White supremacist: If you’re talking about a group of people more than 10% people of color and headed by an Afro-Latino guy, that doesn’t make sense.”

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 ... hite-supr/

That even the SPLC and ADL label right wing extremists, but don't label "White Supremacist".

...The Southern Poverty Law Center and the Anti-Defamation League both consider the group a right-wing, extremist organization — but one that occupies an unusual place on the extremist spectrum.

In a report on the group, the ADL labeled them “alt lite,” as opposed to more blatant and extreme alt-right groups.

“While the group can be described as violent, nationalistic, Islamophobic, transphobic and misogynistic, its members represent a range of ethnic backgrounds, and its leaders vehemently protest any allegations of racism,” the ADL wrote in the report....

https://nypost.com/2020/09/30/who-are-t ... s-leaders/

[UNI88]

I don’t know if they have ties to other groups and McGinnes is a provocateur who probably doesn’t believe most of his own bullshit.

https://www.mediamatters.org/gavin-mcin ... 4vhyrXmEFs

McInnes is their founder, but not current leader. Ever heard of a so called "White Supremacist Group" who's current leader, Enrique Tarrio from Miami, is a black Latino, with a double digit % of non white members?

https://heavy.com/news/2018/11/enrique-tarrio/

Mr. Reilly said that about 10% to 20% of Proud Boys activists are people of color, a diverse racial composition that is “extremely well-known in law enforcement,” based on his research.

“Enrique Tarrio, their overall leader, is a Black Cuban dude. The Proud Boys explicitly say they’re not racist. They are an openly right-leaning group and they’ll openly fight you — they don’t deny any of this — but saying they’re White supremacist: If you’re talking about a group of people more than 10% people of color and headed by an Afro-Latino guy, that doesn’t make sense.”

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 ... hite-supr/

That even the SPLC and ADL label right wing extremists, but don't label "White Supremacist".

...The Southern Poverty Law Center and the Anti-Defamation League both consider the group a right-wing, extremist organization — but one that occupies an unusual place on the extremist spectrum.

In a report on the group, the ADL labeled them “alt lite,” as opposed to more blatant and extreme alt-right groups.

“While the group can be described as violent, nationalistic, Islamophobic, transphobic and misogynistic, its members represent a range of ethnic backgrounds, and its leaders vehemently protest any allegations of racism,” the ADL wrote in the report....

https://nypost.com/2020/09/30/who-are-t ... s-leaders/

Are there any similarities between labeling the Proud Boys as white supremacist and labeling BLM as marxist because of their founders?

[BDKJMU]

McInnes is their founder, but not current leader. Ever heard of a so called "White Supremacist Group" who's current leader, Enrique Tarrio from Miami, is a black Latino, with a double digit % of non white members?

https://heavy.com/news/2018/11/enrique-tarrio/


https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 ... hite-supr/

That even the SPLC and ADL label right wing extremists, but don't label "White Supremacist".

https://nypost.com/2020/09/30/who-are-t ... s-leaders/

Are there any similarities between labeling the Proud Boys as white supremacist and labeling BLM as marxist because of their founders?

The founders of BLM, including the one on in that 2015 interview on video who claims that she and the other co founder were "trained in Marxism", are still their current leaders, are they not? Also the BLM's mission statement that was recently removed (as in last month) espoused Marxist principles.

[kalm]

I don’t know if they have ties to other groups and McGinnes is a provocateur who probably doesn’t believe most of his own bullshit.


https://www.mediamatters.org/gavin-mcin ... 4vhyrXmEFs

McInnes is their founder, but not current leader. Ever heard of a so called "White Supremacist Group" who's current leader, Enrique Tarrio from Miami, is a black Latino, with a double digit % of non white members?

https://heavy.com/news/2018/11/enrique-tarrio/

Mr. Reilly said that about 10% to 20% of Proud Boys activists are people of color, a diverse racial composition that is “extremely well-known in law enforcement,” based on his research.

“Enrique Tarrio, their overall leader, is a Black Cuban dude. The Proud Boys explicitly say they’re not racist. They are an openly right-leaning group and they’ll openly fight you — they don’t deny any of this — but saying they’re White supremacist: If you’re talking about a group of people more than 10% people of color and headed by an Afro-Latino guy, that doesn’t make sense.”

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 ... hite-supr/

That even the SPLC and ADL label right wing extremists, but don't label "White Supremacist".

...The Southern Poverty Law Center and the Anti-Defamation League both consider the group a right-wing, extremist organization — but one that occupies an unusual place on the extremist spectrum.

In a report on the group, the ADL labeled them “alt lite,” as opposed to more blatant and extreme alt-right groups.

“While the group can be described as violent, nationalistic, Islamophobic, transphobic and misogynistic, its members represent a range of ethnic backgrounds, and its leaders vehemently protest any allegations of racism,” the ADL wrote in the report....

https://nypost.com/2020/09/30/who-are-t ... s-leaders/

So they’ve evolved from a white supremacist right wing extremist group to a more inclusive one.

Good for them!

[89Hen]

Are there any similarities between labeling the Proud Boys as white supremacist and labeling BLM as marxist because of their founders?

The first time I've heard a Proud Boys founder speak was yesterday, so I honestly don't know anything about them other then they deny being white supremacists, which of course has to be taken with a grain of salt. The BLM founders have been very upfront and proclaimed their position, but the suburban whites don't give a shit and put the signs up in their yard anyway.

FWIW, I've never once seen a Proud Boys bumper sticker, yard sign, t-shirt, etc... but I can drive around and find you all of those for BLM within seconds of my house.

[HI54UNI]

[BDKJMU]

Are there any similarities between labeling the Proud Boys as white supremacist and labeling BLM as marxist because of their founders?

The first time I've heard a Proud Boys founder speak was yesterday, so I honestly don't know anything about them other then they deny being white supremacists, which of course has to be taken with a grain of salt. The BLM founders have been very upfront and proclaimed their position, but the suburban whites don't give a shit and put the signs up in their yard anyway.

FWIW, I've never once seen a Proud Boys bumper sticker, yard sign, t-shirt, etc... but I can drive around and find you all of those for BLM within seconds of my house.

Sounds like you’re living in the wrong area. Early-mid Sept I drove down to rural VA then the Carolinas, Georgia, N Fl, stayed St Johns Co/St Aug for a week+, then back, mostly 2 to 4 lane non interstate/rural (I like country drives & try to avoid interstates time permitting). Maybe 100 locations with several hundred Trump signs/flags (most put up more than 1), 1 Biden flag, zero BLM. Its like we’re talking about 2 different worlds.

[JohnStOnge]

Note that it said that the Republicans claimed this and that. I watched the video. Comparing that to what Trump did is pretty ridiculous.

[89Hen]

The first time I've heard a Proud Boys founder speak was yesterday, so I honestly don't know anything about them other then they deny being white supremacists, which of course has to be taken with a grain of salt. The BLM founders have been very upfront and proclaimed their position, but the suburban whites don't give a shit and put the signs up in their yard anyway.

FWIW, I've never once seen a Proud Boys bumper sticker, yard sign, t-shirt, etc... but I can drive around and find you all of those for BLM within seconds of my house.

Sounds like you’re living in the wrong area. Early-mid Sept I drove down to rural VA then the Carolinas, Georgia, N Fl, stayed St Johns Co/St Aug for a week+, then back, mostly 2 to 4 lane non interstate/rural (I like country drives & try to avoid interstates time permitting). Maybe 100 locations with several hundred Trump signs/flags (most put up more than 1), 1 Biden flag, zero BLM. Its like we’re talking about 2 different worlds.

I see tons of Trump and Biden flags and yard signs. I was specifically talking about Proud Boys vs BLM.

[BDKJMU]

Sounds like you’re living in the wrong area. Early-mid Sept I drove down to rural VA then the Carolinas, Georgia, N Fl, stayed St Johns Co/St Aug for a week+, then back, mostly 2 to 4 lane non interstate/rural (I like country drives & try to avoid interstates time permitting). Maybe 100 locations with several hundred Trump signs/flags (most put up more than 1), 1 Biden flag, zero BLM. Its like we’re talking about 2 different worlds.

I see tons of Trump and Biden flags and yard signs. I was specifically talking about Proud Boys vs BLM.

Well, I never saw BLM signs either.